|
Post by Fletchsmile on May 21, 2015 13:38:56 GMT 7
Singapore REITS came up on another thread, so thought it might make sense to start a separate thread here:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 1. heaps of cash in different currencies, even bundles of physical cash held in different countries. no need for "returns" as the cash has already been returned and generated by returns. thinking of my cash quota i fall asleep every day like a well-fed baby unlike 20 years ago when i couldn't sleep without being leveraged up to the hilt. 2. besides cash nothing but bonds. high yields and capital gains (doing some homework and of course with a little help from goddess Fortuna). 3. my luck has recently changed. in olden times i lost already a bundle just being interested in some property. never made a single penny but always lost. best deal was no loss when i sold our home in Florida by getting exactly the same amount paid ten years before. this year i sold two properties for the very first time with a huge profit. 4. i am too ignorant to invest in equities. can't make head or tails reading a fake balance sheet and feel too young by letting a fund manager handle my dough. For the 4 asset classes above, I vary by currency, so SGD for example I like for cash and property exposure. just EUR that apart from equities I don't see anything else attractive to me in EUR. I understand where you're coming from on bonds + cash when you've achieved you financial goals, and capital preservation is key, with a big enough pot to last you. Property isn't generally my thing either. I do hold a couple of mutual funds, plus as we've chatted in the past, I'm still a fan of Singapore REITs: Singapore + SGD + property + yield + tax free = a nice story My SGD REITs portfolio still yields around 6.4% tax free (not guaranteed) with potential for capital gains. The main risk will come with them though when rates start to rise significantly, and they have to re-finance any borrowings given they pay out most of their profits to retain tax free status. That's probably a few years off yet, plus I also prefer the ones that are not too highly leveraged. Cheers Fletch
|
|
naam
Crazy Mango
Posts: 46
Likes: 57
|
Post by naam on May 22, 2015 9:50:15 GMT 7
trading at the SG exchange or are they some sort of funds/ETFs? i am still trying to reduce risk for my wife's friend who lives in Singapore, if possible assets denominated in SGD.
|
|
|
Post by paddyjenkins on May 22, 2015 14:42:57 GMT 7
reduce risk by buying REITS...now that's a novel concept...unless the friend of the wife has been base jumping, participating in bare knuckle fighting competitions, parachuting, or swimming with sharks....
|
|
|
Post by Fletchsmile on May 24, 2015 20:12:06 GMT 7
trading at the SG exchange or are they some sort of funds/ETFs? i am still trying to reduce risk for my wife's friend who lives in Singapore, if possible assets denominated in SGD. Hi Naam Yes they're traded on SGX just like other securities. SGX gives a good product overview, risks, FAQ etc in the link below. If your friend is looking to: diversify risk across different asset class than she has already, have some property exposure, wants SGD and looking for yield, they're definitely worth a look. Very good way to get property exposure, but remain liquid. You end up with the rental yield + potential for gains (or losses on capital value of property). I appreciate you're an expert in bonds and fixed income, so equities not to your taste, but this is more like owning a share of a portfolio of properties. Wouldn't recommend anyone put all their money in these things by any means, but worth a % of a portfolio. To gain the tax benefits most of their profits have to be paid out as income, so will usually yield more than equities, but perhaps less capital growth. The yields I quoted are all based on the REITs payouts after all income and expenses. www.sgx.com/wps/portal/sgxweb/home/products/securities/reits/eg from the education and information section FAQs What are listed REITs? A listed REIT is a vehicle for investment in a portfolio of real estate assets, usually established with a view to generating income for unit holders. REITs assets are professionally managed and revenues generated from assets (primarily rental income) are normally distributed to you, as a unit holder at regular intervals. Units of listed REITs are bought and sold like any other securities listed on exchanges at market-driven prices.
|
|
|
Post by paddyjenkins on May 24, 2015 23:03:38 GMT 7
The real risk on Singapore REITS has very little to do with the risk on property itself, that bits easy. The risk is about the leverage, debt and other games the managers play in order to buy assets, how capital is raised to acquire new assets, conflicts of interest, insider dealing and crony capitalism. The last three are especially pertinent to South East Asia, including Singapore. Also, in general, its about the accounting for depreciation and management expenses etc. If you aren't prepared to read through a set of accounts and do some research into the managers then buying Singapore REITS is a matter of pot luck.
Or, you can just believe what it says on the tin...up to you.
|
|
|
Post by Fletchsmile on May 24, 2015 23:19:41 GMT 7
I'm happy to do the research and collect the returns of course
|
|
naam
Crazy Mango
Posts: 46
Likes: 57
|
Post by naam on May 25, 2015 8:40:35 GMT 7
trading at the SG exchange or are they some sort of funds/ETFs? i am still trying to reduce risk for my wife's friend who lives in Singapore, if possible assets denominated in SGD. Hi Naam Yes they're traded on SGX just like other securities. SGX gives a good product overview, risks, FAQ etc in the link below. If your friend is looking to: diversify risk across different asset class than she has already, have some property exposure, wants SGD and looking for yield, they're definitely worth a look. Very good way to get property exposure, but remain liquid. You end up with the rental yield + potential for gains (or losses on capital value of property). I appreciate you're an expert in bonds and fixed income, so equities not to your taste, but this is more like owning a share of a portfolio of properties. Wouldn't recommend anyone put all their money in these things by any means, but worth a % of a portfolio. To gain the tax benefits most of their profits have to be paid out as income, so will usually yield more than equities, but perhaps less capital growth. The yields I quoted are all based on the REITs payouts after all income and expenses. www.sgx.com/wps/portal/sgxweb/home/products/securities/reits/eg from the education and information section FAQs What are listed REITs? A listed REIT is a vehicle for investment in a portfolio of real estate assets, usually established with a view to generating income for unit holders. REITs assets are professionally managed and revenues generated from assets (primarily rental income) are normally distributed to you, as a unit holder at regular intervals. Units of listed REITs are bought and sold like any other securities listed on exchanges at market-driven prices. the whole thing is a wee bit more complicated as two blind people and a one-eyed are involved. we have close friends residing in SG (my wife's friend [they studied together in U.K.] who is a Singaporean and her German husband). i am handling their investment since ~23 years as both, inspite of my efforts, have not the slightest idea about finances except how to economise by spending ~60% of their income (~SGD 105k) i generate for them. they own a flat free and clear in SG. the husband will receive in 2 years and the wife in 5 years German social insurance payments, total ~SGD 40k p.a. - that's the reason why my target is to reduce considerably risky holdings in their portfolio and replace them with more conservative assets, preferably denominated in SGD. 10-15% REITS might be a start. being the above-mentioned one-eyed it will take quite some research. thanks Fletch! question: what are the "tax benefits" you mentioned? our friends live tax-free in SG.
|
|
The Arrow
Vigilante
Vigilante
Posts: 3,034
Likes: 1,837
|
Post by The Arrow on May 25, 2015 8:43:35 GMT 7
Hi Naam Yes they're traded on SGX just like other securities. SGX gives a good product overview, risks, FAQ etc in the link below. If your friend is looking to: diversify risk across different asset class than she has already, have some property exposure, wants SGD and looking for yield, they're definitely worth a look. Very good way to get property exposure, but remain liquid. You end up with the rental yield + potential for gains (or losses on capital value of property). I appreciate you're an expert in bonds and fixed income, so equities not to your taste, but this is more like owning a share of a portfolio of properties. Wouldn't recommend anyone put all their money in these things by any means, but worth a % of a portfolio. To gain the tax benefits most of their profits have to be paid out as income, so will usually yield more than equities, but perhaps less capital growth. The yields I quoted are all based on the REITs payouts after all income and expenses. www.sgx.com/wps/portal/sgxweb/home/products/securities/reits/eg from the education and information section FAQs What are listed REITs? A listed REIT is a vehicle for investment in a portfolio of real estate assets, usually established with a view to generating income for unit holders. REITs assets are professionally managed and revenues generated from assets (primarily rental income) are normally distributed to you, as a unit holder at regular intervals. Units of listed REITs are bought and sold like any other securities listed on exchanges at market-driven prices. the whole thing is a wee bit more complicated as two blind people and a one-eyed are involved. we have close friends residing in SG (my wife's friend [they studied together in U.K.] who is a Singaporean and her German husband). i am handling their investment since ~23 years as both, inspite of my efforts, have not the slightest idea about finances except how to economise by spending ~60% of their income (~SGD 105k) i generate for them. they own a flat free and clear in SG. the husband will receive in 2 years and the wife in 5 years German social insurance payments, total ~SGD 40k p.a. - that's the reason why my target is to reduce considerably risky holdings in their portfolio and replace them with more conservative assets, preferably denominated in SGD. 10-15% REITS might be a start. being the above-mentioned one-eyed it will take quite some research. thanks Fletch! question: what are the "tax benefits" you mentioned? our friends live tax-free in SG. I wish you'd bloody well handle my investments, I might get to retire sometime before 90/death, which ever comes later.
|
|
|
Post by Fletchsmile on May 25, 2015 22:03:38 GMT 7
Naam The ones I currently hold and am happy with + Bberg tickers are: ART:SP - Ascott Residences div yield 6.64% - Hospitality Industry FCOT:SP - Fraser Commercial Trust div 6.05% - Office FCT:SP - Fraser Centrepoint Trust div 5.64% - Retail FIRT:SP - First Real Estate Inv Trust div 5.72% - Health Industry OUEHT:SP - OUE Hospitality Trust div 6.74% - Hospitality I see the above as long term holds and am sat on positive holding gains in addition to the regular divs often quarterly, usually no less than semi-annually Then LMRT:SP - Lippo Malls Indonesia Trust - div 9.86% - again on positive holding gains. Backed by Lippo group which anyone having spent time in Indonesia will know well - yes Indonesia business but Singapore listed, and FX largely removed. The reason I separate it out is they have some debt due for restructuring in the next couple of months, and this will be interesting to see how they do. Don't see a problem, but am just being conservative before adding more. If they get thru OK (not highly leveraged just refinancing) I'll add Lastly KREIT: SP - div yield 5.74% - only one I have a small loss on holding of about 3%, but dividends received and receivable outweigh that. Part of that was Temasek used to hold and depressed the price when they exited with such a large holding The intention with these is to hold - not unlike bonds - and collect the dividends. Capital will fluctuate like bonds, but unlike bonds no fixed maturity and would expect capital growth over time to align with growth in property values All 7 are small SGD 1bn to SGD 7bn in size hence why spreading across several. Also the different sectors bring different defensive qualities/ lease periods etc As Paddy says, you do need to research a bit. But for someone like yourself compared to trudging thru a bond prospectus in full much easier. There's also various decent info around on websites for 3rd part views. Unlike Thai REITs also much more transparent and easier to access info. Will post a bit more later, but run out of time for today... hope that's less "beating about the bush" Cheers Fletch
|
|
|
Post by Fletchsmile on May 25, 2015 22:07:24 GMT 7
Forgot to add, on tax benefit, it comes in 2 main ways: 1) The companies/REITs themselves. They receive special tax priveleges/ reduced rates on their business taxes compared to a normal company, which leads to higher profits than if not structured as a REIT. This is in return for the obligation to pay most of the profits out in distributions 2) For the holders of the securities. No capital gains tax. Very little witholding tax on divs - if any - and for most individuals resident and non-resident very simple - nothing to do except collect payments which have little/no tax deducted - no admin filing etc. My current yield as mentioned is around 6.4% tax free, SGD after all expenses, with some upside for capital gains, but also not capital guaranteed Cheers Fletch
|
|
|
Post by paddyjenkins on May 26, 2015 5:47:05 GMT 7
Naam The ones I currently hold and am happy with + Bberg tickers are: ART:SP - Ascott Residences div yield 6.64% - Hospitality Industry FCOT:SP - Fraser Commercial Trust div 6.05% - Office FCT:SP - Fraser Centrepoint Trust div 5.64% - Retail FIRT:SP - First Real Estate Inv Trust div 5.72% - Health Industry OUEHT:SP - OUE Hospitality Trust div 6.74% - Hospitality I see the above as long term holds and am sat on positive holding gains in addition to the regular divs often quarterly, usually no less than semi-annually Then LMRT:SP - Lippo Malls Indonesia Trust - div 9.86% - again on positive holding gains. Backed by Lippo group which anyone having spent time in Indonesia will know well - yes Indonesia business but Singapore listed, and FX largely removed. The reason I separate it out is they have some debt due for restructuring in the next couple of months, and this will be interesting to see how they do. Don't see a problem, but am just being conservative before adding more. If they get thru OK (not highly leveraged just refinancing) I'll add Lastly KREIT: SP - div yield 5.74% - only one I have a small loss on holding of about 3%, but dividends received and receivable outweigh that. Part of that was Temasek used to hold and depressed the price when they exited with such a large holding The intention with these is to hold - not unlike bonds - and collect the dividends. Capital will fluctuate like bonds, but unlike bonds no fixed maturity and would expect capital growth over time to align with growth in property values All 7 are small SGD 1bn to SGD 7bn in size hence why spreading across several. Also the different sectors bring different defensive qualities/ lease periods etc As Paddy says, you do need to research a bit. But for someone like yourself compared to trudging thru a bond prospectus in full much easier. There's also various decent info around on websites for 3rd part views. Unlike Thai REITs also much more transparent and easier to access info. Will post a bit more later, but run out of time for today... hope that's less "beating about the bush" Cheers Fletch I hold a few of the above, although just sold FIRT on valuation grounds, will review and maybe get back in if i can convince myself real NAV is higher than the auditors think, or if i can convince myself they deserve such a high price to book.
|
|
AyG
Crazy Mango Extraordinaire
Posts: 5,871
Likes: 4,555
|
Post by AyG on May 26, 2015 6:44:26 GMT 7
The ones I currently hold and am happy with + Bberg tickers are: I think in the distant past you've mentioned SGREIT:SP (Starhill Global REIT) positively, but haven't done so recently. Has something changed?
|
|
thaddeus
Crazy Mango
Posts: 442
Likes: 438
|
Post by thaddeus on May 26, 2015 9:43:05 GMT 7
I think something needs fixing.
On the right side of the window, there is a recent threads list, I clicked on Members Recipes, but got this.
|
|
me
Crazy Mango Extraordinaire
Posts: 6,342
Likes: 3,980
|
Post by me on May 26, 2015 10:01:45 GMT 7
I think something needs fixing. On the right side of the window, there is a recent threads list, I clicked on Members Recipes, but got this. That is our random Mystery Destination generator,
|
|
DAL
Crazy Mango
Dancestoomut!
Sweet hangover
Posts: 203
Likes: 186
|
Post by DAL on May 26, 2015 10:44:18 GMT 7
I think something needs fixing. On the right side of the window, there is a recent threads list, I clicked on Members Recipes, but got this. Haha same here!! Was thinking about T-bone steaks..^^
|
|