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Post by Fletchsmile on Apr 25, 2016 16:48:37 GMT 7
For Krungrsi-Income Fund (KF-INCOME) www.krungsriasset.com/FundDetail.aspx?fund=KF-INCOME&lang=Ethere is now a non-dividend paying version / accumulation unit version version Krungsri Collective Global Income Fund (KF-CINCOME) this may suit people who don't need an income from the fund (although the thread was initially about income yielding portfolios). www.krungsriasset.com/FundDetail.aspx?fund=KF-CINCOME&lang=EBoth funds are for accredited investors so the initial minimum is THB 510,000. To explain a little more: Normally on dividend paying unit trusts/ mutual funds in Thailand you can elect to either 1) suffer a flat rate of 10% witholding tax on the dividend and have nothing to further to pay or 2) receive the dividend gross and pay at your marginal rate of tax. So if you're a non-tax payer that's 0% as a marginal rate, and if you're a higher rate tax payer that's 35%, with all the other tax bands of 5%,10%,20%,30% etc in between. For accumulation units that don't pay dividends, any gain is a capital gain and there's usually no tax on capital gains from mutual funds. So accumulation units can be more tax efficient if you don't need income. Or if you do need income just sell a few units. We bought this version for the kids, in saving for their futures, as they don't need income and we'll be holding at least 10 years, and it also saves admin. As KF-Income is for accredited investors, there's a sort of assumption they may already have high income levels. So as mentioned in post #12, KF-Income automatically switches units into its KF-Cash Management fund each month. Hence this makes a capital gain for you which is tax free, rather than a dividend which could be taxable. We have this version for my wife. On 510k with a yield of 4.X%, you'll see the following 2 transactions each month: Sell approx 2,000 baht's worth of KF-Income Buy approx 2,000 baht's worth of KF-Cash (exactly same value in baht) You can then sell your KF-Cash units to generate the cash you need as income. You could either do this immediately each month, or save them up and wait. Not quite sure how exactly they calculate the amounts as they vary slightly each month, but are usually in the same ball park. In other countries they actually pay out the 4.X% annual yield in monthly amounts. In Thailand they do it this way for tax efficiency. |
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Post by Fletchsmile on Oct 17, 2016 11:18:58 GMT 7
There's a bit of an update on the TMB Property Income Fund on the thread below. Generally it's average performance has been in line with expectations, although with a few quirks with it being a new fund.
bigmango.boards.net/post/92287/thread
If anything the yield estimate I of 4.X% to 5.X% looks in hindisght after 2 1/4 years to have been a little bit conservative. Still I prefer doing that when I'm budgeting for things. Partly also the composition of the portfolio and how it's developed as Thai roperty investment yields are higher than the SIngapore ones.
Actual average div yield has been more like 6.3%, so maybe 5.X% to 6.X% might be more accurate.
Anyway, now it has a bit longer track record, and as it's done broadly as hoped/ expected: decent dividend yield + capital growth, we'll probably add to this further, and am comfortable increasing the weighting a bit.
Cheers
Fletch 
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chiangmai
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Post by chiangmai on Oct 5, 2017 17:41:00 GMT 7
I'm just wondering if anyone has any updates to this thread, especially rgs who I see has a similar interest in the subject as me, creating an income mechanism for a non-financial Thai person?
While you're thinking about that, I'll have a read through the various links
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Post by rgs2001uk on Oct 5, 2017 22:06:34 GMT 7
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Post by Fletchsmile on Nov 21, 2017 20:10:55 GMT 7
Some updated thoughts on the funds/ investments that we've been holding for my wife mentioned in post #2. Remembering the objectives in the OP, being simple, bought from Thailand and paying dividends. Part 1: 1) Thai Equities + 2) Global Multi Asset + 3) Asian and Thai Property 1) Thai equities: approx 3% yieldYields have dropped on Thai dividends, but between these two they should be able to generate about 3% yield, similar to the SET. I think the two funds suggested still make sense: - Krungsri Dividend LTF
- UOB BigCap Dividend LTFAdditional Comments -I continue to be happy with these. I like Thai equities and the idea is to hold these funds and not touch the capital. Just have her collect the dividends. -It's been meeting its objectives we were looking for it: Dividend payouts have been in line with expectations at around 3% average for the two funds and they show some capital growth on top, to keep pace with inflation -UOB pays dividends annually in May and Krungsri annually in November so they complement each other well in spreading out the income received -Although they are LTFs and she's a non-tax payer she could still buy them. Just doesn't get any tax relief. If not claiming tax relief there is also no limit on what you can buy -Krungsri has been a better performing fund and consistently in the Top 10 performer list for Thai equities over the years. This Big Mango thread recently looked at top performers: bigmango.boards.net/thread/10963/performing-thai-long-equity-funds- UOB Thai Big Cap's performance has dropped a bit, but still reasonable. If not looking for dividends UOB Good Corporate Governance LTF would be a preferred fund. However, its focus on large caps should hopefully make it more stable long term, and perhaps lower losses in market crashes. It's also nice to have a second fund to the Krungrsri one which is different in its make up, rather than put all the eggs in one basket, and the fact they are 6 months apart in paying dividends as mentions nicely and effortlessly smooths cashflo -Denominated in THB available in Thailand and the underlying exposure is THB 2) Global Multi Asset: Mixed Global Equities, Bonds and some REITs - Yield approx 4%- Krungsri Income Fund (KF-Income)Additional Comments: - Denominated in THB and available onshore - This has been a nice core investment which feeds into in JPM Global Income Fund - a solid reliable fund from a quality fund management house - The underlying exposures are all mainly foreign and outside Thailand so well diversified away from local country specific risks. They complement will the two Thai equity funds above - It's a well diversified core fund covering a wide range of assets, equities, bonds, both developed and emerging markets and even some small REIT exposures, all of which which the manager will active manage according to economic conditions - It's Specifically designed for generating income as a core fund in a portfolio. The way it generates income in Thailand though is by "auto-redemption" of units into their cash fund. You then sell these units. This is a bit more admin but not exactly difficult, and favourable from a tax perspective - It's been meeting the objectives we set for it and done pretty much as expected and generated 4% plus some capital growth - One thing to note though is it is quite US and USD focused. So for a Thai investor based in Thailand this brings some currency risk. As THB has been strengthening vs USD this is something to bear in mind - Again though this US and USD exposure isn't too bad as part of a diversified portfolio. For someone a bit nervous with THB only equities and THB assets, I find it adds a nice balance. Just be mindful of the currency risk 3) Asian and Thai Property fund- TMB Property Income Plus Fund - Yield 4% - 5% + Additional Comments: -Available and denominated in THB -Property exposure to diversify further the asset classes - It invests in REITs from Singapore and REITS/ property sector in Thailand. So part of the underlying is Thai property exposure and part Singapore focused. there is some SGD vs THB currency risk. But as we've discussed elsewhere on here SGD can be a decent currency to hold anyway for people based in Thailand. SGD/THB is much less volatile than USD/THB and they move more in step - It provides an uplift in yield to 1) and 2) above - I've been pretty pleased with performance and exposure to Asian and Thai property. If and when we sell our condo, I'll likely park some of the proceeds here in my wife's name. I'd rather hold this type of fund than a single condo as an investment - It was relatively new in our portfolio at the time this thread was started and we were looking to see how it came along. At the time I said we probably wouldn't put more than 10% in it at this stage. However, given the way things have turned out and having more experience of it now, I like the fund and would be comfortable adding more So in summary the 3 pillars above: 2 Thai equity funds + 1 global multi asset + 1 Asian/Thai property fund form a decent core of what we're looking for, and I'm very comfortable holding these for my wife, with a decent yield + some capital appreciation plus not much effort/ simple |
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Post by Fletchsmile on Nov 21, 2017 20:30:08 GMT 7
Part 2 update: Fixed Income. 4) Global Fixed Income 5) Thai Fixed IncomeThe bond elements I was looking at I haven't been so happy with and so have reduced / cut. I'm still struggling to find decent global bond and Thai bond funds to be bought from Thailand. The possible proposed changes AYG mentioned make Thai fixed income funds even less attractive, as in the thread below bigmango.boards.net/thread/11926/thailand-impose-bond-income-nextFinding bond/ bond funds I really like is challenging anyway in today's environment offshore, but with an even more limited choice in Thailand it's even tougher 4) Global Bonds TMB Global Bond Fund - I've generally sold off this - We also held a couple of variations of this from Singapore, but again I've reduced them. - As I said initially I wasn't high conviction in this fund and now having the JPM fund in mixed asset class saw less of a need for it global bonds to diversify a bit. - In the event when we sold in Thailand, I switched a fair bit into the Krungrsi/JPM multi asset fund. One fixed fund I replaced Templeton with in Singapore was Pimco Global Income. This has fared better than Templeton and Pimco are a very sold fixed income management house. It's been returning a steady 4% in SGD terms with some capital growth. Also nice is that I borrow against it at a cost of about SGD 2% based on Sibor + margin. So I get a nice monthly coupon payout from the fund in SGD which more than covers the monthly interest charge I did look at the TMB THB equivalent which feeds into Pimco Global Income, which they've called TMB Global Income www.tmbam.com/home/en/mutual-fund-detail.php?f=539The Thai version was less appealing though. As: 1) it doesn't pay a dividend in Thailand 2) My SGD version is hedged into SGD, which I really like. The fund has a large exposure to USD and USD assets, so I like the fact returns are managed in SGD terms, given where USD ahs been heading. The Thai version although it can choose to hedge isn't at all clear 3) I can't borrow against it in Thailand. It's mainly a case that I feel the Singapore version is a superior product, and don't want to buy in Thailand just for the sake of it. I will keep an eye to see how it does in Thailand though. I'm expecting returns to suffer a bit for the Thailand version though because of USD weakening vs THB 5) Thai bonds - TBH I still haven't really found what I'm looking for here and haven't found a quality decent yield income paying fund with THB exposure, so it's still a bit of a gap. The possible changes to Thai fixed income funds as mentioned makes it less likely we'll go into this area - At the moment I'd still prefer to just hold a decent interest paying THB cash bank account. The returns on THB bond funds (after charges) generally don't really seem worth the hassle and bothering with. So in summary for the global and Thai bond elements we were looking for we don't hold much at all. We've sold off a lot of the bond fund exposure we have via Thailand. The Krungsri multi-asset fund gives some exposure to global bonds and THB cash all things considered stands in for the THB bond part for now at least. |
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Post by rgs2001uk on Nov 21, 2017 21:08:51 GMT 7
Fletch will you be in town on the 14th of next month?
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AyG
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Post by AyG on Nov 22, 2017 7:58:42 GMT 7
- TMB Property Income Plus Fund - Yield 4% - 5% + there is some SGD vs THB currency risk. At the time I said we probably wouldn't put more than 10% in it at this stage. However, given the way things have turned out and having more experience of it now, I like the fund and would be comfortable adding mor Whilst I like this fund, I remain very frustrated by it. What is the actual yield? If I tot up the dividends from last year, I get 0.88. Divide that by the current price (11.12) and I get a yield of 7.9%. Repeat that with this year's dividends so far, and I get 6.7%. However, I'm hoping for another dividend in December which should take the yield up to around 7.9% again. The lack of a proper schedule for dividend payments is irksome. It looks this year as if they've settled into a pattern of months 3, 6, 9 (and I anticipate 12). But last year it was 3, 4, 7, 10. (Note in particular the long gap between 10/16 and 3/17.) The amounts of the dividends also vary inexplicably. I've looked at the dividend schedules of the underlying holdings, and they come in like clockwork for each quarter. I really don't know what TMBAM is playing at. Similarly on SGB/THB currency risk, what is it? The documentation says they will be currency hedging at their discretion. I haven't a clue whether this means hedging will typically be at 100% or 0%. Another frustration is why it is currently 12.9% in cash? Is it significant that almost all that cash (over a billion baht) is deposited with TMB? Are they propping up TMB's balance sheet? At the moment I've put 5% into this fund, which is an increase over the same time last year. I do wish there were a bit of competition in this space to give me more choice, and in an ideal world, to drive down fees. A 1% initial charge and 1.39% TER really is too much for what is actually a very simple proposition. |
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AyG
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Post by AyG on Nov 22, 2017 8:19:35 GMT 7
Off topic, but not worth opening a new topic for: (1) SET's Fundconnext was launched earlier this year. It was supposed to make it easier to hold funds from a variety of asset managers on a single platform. Is there any evidence of this actually having happened? (2) Anyone got any experience of buying funds through Maybank Kim Eng? I was surprised by the number of asset managers they apparently support (see www.maybank-ke.co.th/en/products-services/products-services/mutual-funds/index.html ). Do they offer the full range of funds from each asset management? And what is service like? |
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Post by Fletchsmile on Nov 22, 2017 13:37:50 GMT 7
1) I haven't seen much more on the single platform mentioned 2) I've never used Maybank Kim Eng. However, a lot of the brokers now offer that sort of thing. eg KGI, the broker I use has a similar range www.kgieworld.co.th/en/fi/wealth.aspNow Standard Chartered has gone and Tisco doesn't have the same advantages, I'm likely to look around more for new platforms/ providers and KGI is one option, as I already have a good existing relationship with them, thru my TFEX trading which would minimise all the set up admin. The RM at KGI has a very good "can do" attitude, for trading at least. Another option is the securities company one of my previous Stan Chart RMs now works at. I'm also waiting to see where my most recent RM from StanChart goes (or not). If she moves somewhere decent there's a good chance we will also follow her, for new business at least. The relationships in this field can be so important. Likely to be early 2018, but there's a good chance we'll be changing or at least adding a new provider (s). |
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Post by Fletchsmile on Nov 22, 2017 15:12:23 GMT 7
Fletch will you be in town on the 14th of next month? Yes Fletch is around. I heard rumours of a BigMango lunch and drinks which would probably run into the evening and night Also on that day though is the British Chamber Xmas lunch. So was thinking about that too. |
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Post by rgs2001uk on Nov 22, 2017 22:36:46 GMT 7
Fletch will you be in town on the 14th of next month? Yes Fletch is around. I heard rumours of a BigMango lunch and drinks which would probably run into the evening and night Also on that day though is the British Chamber Xmas lunch. So was thinking about that too. Great stuff, glad to hear it, see you at the Mad Hatters tea party,  , ps get your drinking head on. |
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AyG
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Post by AyG on Dec 17, 2017 12:26:17 GMT 7
- TMB Property Income Plus Fund - Yield 4% - 5% + What is the actual yield? If I tot up the dividends from last year, I get 0.88. Divide that by the current price (11.12) and I get a yield of 7.9%. Repeat that with this year's dividends so far, and I get 6.7%. However, I'm hoping for another dividend in December which should take the yield up to around 7.9% again. As hoped for, there was another dividend in December. That makes the total dividend for this year 0.83 - fractionally less than last year's 0.88. Based upon the latest offer price of 11.2821, that's a yield of 7.36%. I really can't understand how they do it. It seems too good to be true. |
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Post by Fletchsmile on Dec 18, 2017 10:34:11 GMT 7
I believe some of the payout is from capital gains. In the same way that a loss on the capital side below the initial par value of 10 stops them paying distributions, when there are gains they are allowed to pay this out in addition to simply income. Different country different rules / norms.
While payment from capital reserves is unusual for UK funds/ investment trusts, there are still some that do it. European Asset Trust is one (EAT)
Haven't looked recently at TMBPIPF holdings. But my Singapore REITs portfolio yields about 6.4%. So I wouldn't expect the yield from the income side of the Singapore element of TMBPIPF to be above that given they have additional management fees to me holding direct. The Thai income yield on Thai REITs/ property funds in TMBPIPF is probably higher than the Singapore side, but even so I wouldn't expect their income yield less management charges to 7%+. That's why I assume some of the payout is from capital. I have other Thai funds which also do that.
One of the reasons I didn't use to invest in Thai REITs direct was the lack of decent available info around, especially in English, so it was often difficult and/or time consuming to look at what was in fact a return from capital on Thai REITs.
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Post by Fletchsmile on Sept 21, 2019 18:11:07 GMT 7
As an update on this, I think the core (as modified in reply #19) has generally delivered and achieved the objectives set out in the OP.
Part 1: 1) Thai Equities + 2) Global Multi Asset + 3) Asian and Thai Property - has been key, and been over 90% of the portfolio throughout. Part 2: 4) Global bonds. Was always a small porportion (even at start <10%), then reduced and then cut completely. Thai bonds have never formed part, despite being on the radar.
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Brief Notes:
1) Thai Equities have met objectives. Krungsri Dividend LTF and UOB Big Cap Div LTF have delivered a reasonable income of around 3%, with capital appreciation.I'm in the process of replacing both though with ONE-EC14-RD and 1 AMSET50-RA for the reasons outlined in the thread on One AM: bigmango.boards.net/thread/15459/asset-managementFees are lower on One Am. Which I feel is important in this environment, while Thai equity market returns in general have been more modest, and looking forward seem likely to be so. Although 1 AMSET50-RA doesn't pay a div, charges are low by Thai equity fund standards (0.52% pa) , and we're holding it until the div paying version is available to us Krungsri and UOB have done well over the years. Particularly in strong bull markets. But their fees now look expensive. 2) Global Multi Asset: Mixed Global Equities, Bonds and some REITs - - Krungsri Income Fund (KF-Income) - Yield approx 4%. Has again met its objectives and done what it said on the tin. We've taken around 4% p.a. out and capital has appreciated. I like also the defensive properties. Because of the USD focus, when there's a flight from risk assets then USD benefits. It is very wide spread as a multi-asset fund. Holding this has meant I've been comfortable without any separate global bond holdings. So fills that space as well 3) Asian and Thai Property fund - TMB Property Income Plus Fund - Yield 4% - 5% + plus capital growthThe fund has been particularly pleasing. Delivered as per objectives with income of a regular 4% - 5% now stabilised. Capital growth has significantly exceeded expectations As we've grown in confidence in it and as it now has a more established record, we've added to it ver the years, and it's now around 32% of the weighting Part2: Global and Thai fixed interest. We no longer hold anything here. Krungrsi as mentioned fills the defensive/global bond space. Still not found anything worthwhile in the Thai bond space --------------------------------------------- Summary: Overall those 3 key pillars have delivered well and met objectives: - with an average THB income yield of around 4% p.a. (perhaps just under)
- Capital growth so the portfolio is worth more than the start, and more than kept pace with inflation.
Because of the strong growth in TMP PIPF, capital appreciation is around 15% - 20% for this simple portfolio (total) in THB over 4 years + 4% p.a ball park THB income. I wouldn't expect TMB PIPF capital growth to continue to be so strong going forward.
- Focus on Thailand assets and products has meant that currency risks haven't been a worry, though exposure to some global assets has been useful too
- Onshore in Thailand and easy to manage. My wife could do this herself if anything happened to me and all under our Priortity Banking RM locally if she needed help
Currently there is ball park 1/3 in each of the 3 pillars. So simple in structure too. Of course an adequate cash balance is important too, so she can just collect income generated without needing to touch capital.
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, ps get your drinking head on.
