AyG
Crazy Mango Extraordinaire
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Post by AyG on Nov 20, 2015 16:13:32 GMT 7
There's a lot to be said on this subject, but I've made a few initial comments below. AYG. You've already built and created your wealth and investments, plus have years of experience, so offshore becomes a stronger argument, and fits your situation well, since you've also know the investments well some over many years. Would you change that though if you were investments say THB 30k a month from scratch, based in Thailand, and starting out? Would you still go offshore? If so how would you go about it in practice for someone wanting to invest a monthly amount out of salary from Thailand? I haven't found that so convenient - although happen to be catching up with some people from Singapore next week in related fields and will see what they say. I'm not keen on most offshore financial advisors (IFAs). Go offshore (after LTF/RMF tax benefits)? Yes. There's an initial hit to be taken on the foreign exchange, but that's offset by the high fund charges for Thai funds. You'll recoup the FX hit within a year. I'm also less than impressed by the calibre of Thai fund managers. Whilst I'm not generally a fan of the big name managers, I can't think of a Thai equivalent of Hugh Young, Mark Mobius, Angus Tulloch, Martin Lau, &c., &c. (and that's only in the Emerging Markets space with a UK bias). In practice, with a relatively small amount to invest (viz. 30k/month) I'd probably consider only transferring the money offshore one a year, or perhaps every six months. Not sure why offshore IFAs creep into this discussion. Avoid with a double-length bargepole. (Or longer if you can wield it.) Yes, opening an offshore account is less convenient, but should convenience be a significant criterion when it comes to longer term wealth accumulation? (And I haven't even touched on the potential insecurity of investment through Thailand here.) |
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Post by Fletchsmile on Nov 20, 2015 16:56:19 GMT 7
Definitely for me if you can get the tax benefits LTfs are first port of call. RMFs require a bit more thought.
On the names yes there's less choice/ quality. Although there's now more and more feeder funds so for example Kasikorn and TMB's Global Bond fund actually feeds into Templeton's Global Bond Fund. {Mark Mobius BTW I think is past his sell by date}. I like his analysis but not so much his funds. Definitely no Neil Woodford unfortunately. On Thai equity funds investing in Thailand though consistently up there with the best. For Thai equities my preferred management is here.
If you only do once a year, that would lose all the benefit of lump sump investing that you do as soon as possible according to Vanguard. If you assume say a 7% annual return a year, then delaying until end of a year when you save up, becomes a very significant cost factor. Investing monthly you'd be invested on average for about 6 months longer, i.e first month 12 months, 2nd 11 months, 3rd 10 months, 11th ... 1 month
In addition you get the worst of both worlds = lower return because of delay plus higher risk from investing at a single point in time and getting timing wrong.
So this strategy to me would be a definite no.
Offshore also depends where. You can then get into tax implications. Thailand is tax efficient for that: generally no capital gains or income tax on sales.
Singapore is good for tax too. But the disadvantage there is the costs on unit trusts/mutual funds can sometimes be prohibitive. You end up limiting yourself to exchange traded funds or investment trusts if not careful - although that still gives a decent choice at low cost.
The reason I mentioned offshore advisors was that is what many new starters would do. Offshore is a very good option if you know what you're doing. But for someone starting a portfolio it can be a minefield. Who do you get help from? Fine if experiencing and selecting your own ETFs/ ITs and buying thru a broker to minimize cost, but who's going to give them some ongoing support. Turn to an IFA and as you say many shouldn't be touched with a barge pole.
I have offshore investments to take account of exactly those advantages mentioned, better choice, quality names etc. For starting out though it's less attractive.
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Post by francois on Nov 21, 2015 12:15:43 GMT 7
Thanks for all the feedback! Getting wiser every minute  Went to the main TMB branch in Chiang Rai to inquire about investing in some mutual funds and starting a portfolio. Maybe it's not really something they're used to up here? They had to make some calls to Bangkok and then they printed 2 sheets with their available funds. They recommended their no fixed account, they said that would be better. Maybe if you really know what you're doing and what you want this would be an option. I felt a bit lost there. Luckily I speak Thai, would have been a very difficult conversation otherwise! Thanks to Fletch also for the link to the other thread with a proposed portfolio of some easy investments. I need to go to Bangkok next week anyway, maybe that's the better option? If i just go to StanChart and open an account can i continue online from here in Chiang Rai? I like the idea of building some wealth here to start with and then going offshore later when i have a bit more expertise. Fletch, i understand that all of the funds you recommended in the other thread are bought from Stan Chart, maybe that's a good place to start? I assume that they can give some good advice there too! I can go to BKK 3 or 4 times a year or so, not more. Great to be able to get such good advice & feedback on this forum, have a lovely weekend! (posted this twice now, not sure where the first post went  ) |
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Post by Fletchsmile on Nov 21, 2015 13:02:16 GMT 7
I guess the other thing that comes out of looking at this thread is it can get quite complicated, especially if going overseas for potentially better future returns and wider choice. I think you also need to be more experienced in doing that and need more help. I think overseas investment is worth a topic in itself.
No option is perfect. Investing from Thailand can be simpler and more convenient for starting out.
If I think how I started out in the UK though, it was quite simple. Buying a few shares. Then some more. Later unit trusts and investment trusts, then other products. Offshore. Then Thailand.
Bearing in mind a key factor is the earlier you start the better, there's a lot said to starting something simple, just to get started. As time goes on and experience grows you can add/change and move around
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Post by Fletchsmile on Nov 21, 2015 13:25:43 GMT 7
Thanks for all the feedback! Getting wiser every minute Went to the main TMB branch in Chiang Rai to inquire about investing in some mutual funds and starting a portfolio. Maybe it's not really something they're used to up here? They had to make some calls to Bangkok and then they printed 2 sheets with their available funds. They recommended their no fixed account, they said that would be better. Maybe if you really know what you're doing and what you want this would be an option. I felt a bit lost there. Luckily I speak Thai, would have been a very difficult conversation otherwise! Thanks to Fletch also for the link to the other thread with a proposed portfolio of some easy investments. I need to go to Bangkok next week anyway, maybe that's the better option? If i just go to StanChart and open an account can i continue online from here in Chiang Rai? I like the idea of building some wealth here to start with and then going offshore later when i have a bit more expertise. Fletch, i understand that all of the funds you recommended in the other thread are bought from Stan Chart, maybe that's a good place to start? I assume that they can give some good advice there too! I can go to BKK 3 or 4 times a year or so, not more. Great to be able to get such good advice & feedback on this forum, have a lovely weekend! (posted this twice now, not sure where the first post went ) That's pretty poor from the TMB branch in Chiang Rai. Their no fixed account is good and a competitive as from the bank interest thread: bigmango.boards.net/thread/246/best-bank-interest-rates-thailandAlso it makes sense to build cash and have a decent savings account before taking risks. To recommend cash though when someone is asking specifically about funds is poor. Not sure what other branches are like. Different branches of the same bank can vary in terms of quality in Thailand. Sort of wondered if up country the expertise might not be there. Really sounds like although they can do it technically, the staff weren't experienced in that area. In some ways not surprising given the concentration in Bangkok. Stan Chart as mentioned is good if Bangkok based. Outside Bangkok not so good. I've seen people try that and struggled just from Pattaya. So Chiang Rai could be difficult. Another problem is their systems/ platform. You can't buy and sell funds online. Thailand I get round it as they send a messenger to my home. I sign and send back next day via another messenger. Their banking system is fine and all online. You can also see your investments in this system but can't do anything except see holdings, transactions and values. The problem is you can't buy and sell online. Not sure whether they would accept faxed instructions. They do for me in Singapore. Aberdeen / UOB you can do online if you visited BKK to set up first. Also can use most of the big Thai banks to settle buys/sells. The range is more limited. TMB an option would maybe to visit Head Office in BKK or a main branch. Get them to set things up for the investment side. Then you could do online from Chiang Rai. You could effectively use the Chiang Rai branch for execution only/ carrying out things only after that. Could actually be a good way to build a relationship with a branch. You tell them what you want and kick things off. I've gone this route with other places (not TMB) before of just using them for execution and you end up telling them what you want and their job is just to execute it. So I used to tell them funds I wanted discuss how to build a portfolio etc. Even used to research funds available in Thailand and ask if they could get it on their list. Theses days a bit different. I've now have a great RM who proactively suggests and tells me new things that come up and by getting to know me they know also what I'm looking for and why. Have a great weekend Cheers Fletch BTW: On specific funds, the ones on the income thread may not be appropriate. They are good funds, just that it would probably be better to select others if your objective is not income. I'll look at suggesting some others... |
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AyG
Crazy Mango Extraordinaire
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Post by AyG on Nov 21, 2015 13:39:15 GMT 7
Went to the main TMB branch in Chiang Rai to inquire about investing in some mutual funds and starting a portfolio. Maybe it's not really something they're used to up here? They had to make some calls to Bangkok and then they printed 2 sheets with their available funds. They recommended their no fixed account, they said that would be better. I like the idea of building some wealth here to start with and then going offshore later when i have a bit more expertise. Staff at TMB are likely to know about the bank's products - not those of TMB Asset Management for which they only act as agents. That's why they pushed you towards opening a bank account, rather than a TMBAM account. If you try again you should perhaps take a completed TMBAM application form with you. It can be downloaded from www.tmbam.com/v6/en/service-fund-account.phpThe "no fixed" account most certainly doesn't fit with building wealth: inflation will eat away at the spending power of your investment, despite the interest. For what it's worth, here's what I might do in your circumstances: I'd go with a simple, four way asset allocation such as: 25% Thailand 25% Global Equity 25% Property 25% Bonds Then as I became more knowledgeable and confident, I would probably adopt a more complicated asset allocation model. If I went with TMB Asset Management, that allocation might be implemented as 25% TMB SET 50 Dividend. (Historically, higher dividend stocks outperform lower dividend ones.) 25% TMB Global Quality Growth 25% TMB Property Income Plus 25% TMB Aggregate Bond or TMB Corporate Bond (despite the name, the latter is 41% invested in Thai government bonds) Or with Standard Chartered. (Caveat: I don't have an account with them, so can't be certain all these funds are available on their platform.) 25% Aberdeen Thai Equity Dividend 25% UOB Global High Dividend 25% TMB Property Income Plus 25% Kasikorn K Fixed Some of these funds will generate income which would need to be reinvested to maximise returns. |
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Post by Fletchsmile on Nov 21, 2015 13:59:21 GMT 7
Went to the main TMB branch in Chiang Rai to inquire about investing in some mutual funds and starting a portfolio. Maybe it's not really something they're used to up here? They had to make some calls to Bangkok and then they printed 2 sheets with their available funds. They recommended their no fixed account, they said that would be better. I like the idea of building some wealth here to start with and then going offshore later when i have a bit more expertise. Staff at TMB are likely to know about the bank's products - not those of TMB Asset Management for which they only act as agents. That's why they pushed you towards opening a bank account, rather than a TMBAM account. If you try again you should perhaps take a completed TMBAM application form with you. It can be downloaded from www.tmbam.com/v6/en/service-fund-account.phpThe "no fixed" account most certainly doesn't fit with building wealth: inflation will eat away at the spending power of your investment, despite the interest. For what it's worth, here's what I might do in your circumstances: I'd go with a simple, four way asset allocation such as: 25% Thailand 25% Global Equity 25% Property 25% Bonds Then as I became more knowledgeable and confident, I would probably adopt a more complicated asset allocation model. If I went with TMB Asset Management, that allocation might be implemented as 25% TMB SET 50 Dividend. (Historically, higher dividend stocks outperform lower dividend ones.) 25% TMB Global Quality Growth 25% TMB Property Income Plus 25% TMB Aggregate Bond or TMB Corporate Bond (despite the name, the latter is 41% invested in Thai government bonds) Or with Standard Chartered. (Caveat: I don't have an account with them, so can't be certain all these funds are available on their platform.) 25% Aberdeen Thai Equity Dividend 25% UOB Global High Dividend 25% TMB Property Income Plus 25% Kasikorn K Fixed Some of these funds will generate income which would need to be reinvested to maximise returns. I like some of AYGs' ideas and suggestions above. Will also suggest a few later If you went to TMB Bank Head Office or one of the bigger branches in BKK they would know about TMBAM's products in addition to the bank's saving accounts, as well as the UOB, Aberdeen etc. Just when you go up country sounds like they might not understand the products as well, due to the fact that most of the wealth in Thailand is in Bangkok, and the number of investors outside BKK drops significantly. Hence knowledge of even TMBAM would be more limited, and UOB/Aberdeen etc even more limited given that's relatively new in the last year or so. |
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Post by Fletchsmile on Nov 21, 2015 14:02:44 GMT 7
BTW rgs. You use UOB don't you? Any suggestions?
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Post by rgs2001uk on Nov 21, 2015 14:19:23 GMT 7
Fletch, would need to dig the paperwork out.
I am not knocking the OP, in fact I applaud him, bit its horses for courses, we are all in different boats.
I have Uk properties and investments, I also have Thai investments.
I dont know where the OP is from and what his situation in Thailand is, retired and living here?
Working for a large MNC with the possibility of being reloacted elsewhere?
Wife and kids to consider?
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Post by Fletchsmile on Nov 21, 2015 14:27:27 GMT 7
Fletch, would need to dig the paperwork out. I am not knocking the OP, in fact I applaud him, bit its horses for courses, we are all in different boats. I have Uk properties and investments, I also have Thai investments. I dont know where the OP is from and what his situation in Thailand is, retired and living here? Working for a large MNC with the possibility of being reloacted elsewhere? Wife and kids to consider? Keep it simple mate. Just tell us what and how you buy thru UOB and what Thai investments you hold  . Actually was looking at UOB myself again. I used to have a bank account years back but closed it. Then they later went and bought ING so I wish I hadn't and it would have been very useful if I'd keep it. Their platform for funds is better than Stan Cart, even if the range is more limited I also think they will link better with UOB Singapore in the years to come. |
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Post by rgs2001uk on Nov 21, 2015 14:28:16 GMT 7
Just to add, if I were the OP I would visit Aberdeen and UOB and sit down with them, but please do some background research first.
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Post by rgs2001uk on Nov 21, 2015 14:30:23 GMT 7
Fletch, would need to dig the paperwork out. I am not knocking the OP, in fact I applaud him, bit its horses for courses, we are all in different boats. I have Uk properties and investments, I also have Thai investments. I dont know where the OP is from and what his situation in Thailand is, retired and living here? Working for a large MNC with the possibility of being reloacted elsewhere? Wife and kids to consider? Keep it simple mate. Just tell us what and how you buy thru UOB and what Thai investments you hold . Actually was looking at UOB myself again. I used to have a bank account years back but closed it. Then they later went and bought ING so I wish I hadn't and it would have been very useful if I'd keep it. Their platform for funds is better than Stan Cart, even if the range is more limited I also think they will link better with UOB Singapore in the years to come. Thats the problem, my stuff was bought through ING, which as you say UOB bought. I got into ING through HSBC. Also have Aberdeen. Wish I could keep it simple, . For buying I just go to their offices once or twice per year. |
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Post by realisedurgency on Nov 21, 2015 19:05:31 GMT 7
Thanks for all the feedback! Getting wiser every minute Went to the main TMB branch in Chiang Rai to inquire about investing in some mutual funds and starting a portfolio. Maybe it's not really something they're used to up here? They had to make some calls to Bangkok and then they printed 2 sheets with their available funds. They recommended their no fixed account, they said that would be better. Maybe if you really know what you're doing and what you want this would be an option. I felt a bit lost there. Luckily I speak Thai, would have been a very difficult conversation otherwise! I went to Bangkok Bank, Central, Chiang Rai a few months back and easily bought B-LTF one of their Long-Term Funds that qualifies for a tax benefit on your income in Thailand, I did already have a bank account at the branch though. The staff's English wasn't great but they got the job done. Bangkok Bank's online system makes it easy to add more. B-LTF www.bangkokbank.com/BangkokBank/PersonalBanking/BuildYourWealth/MutualFunds/LTF/Pages/BLTF.aspxThe B-LTF has kept up with the best LTFs and over the last 5 years it has been one of the best performers. Data taken from siam chart, they have a nice fund compare section. siamchart.com/fund-compare/LTF_EQFund/5 year performance B-LTF (BBLAM)/+94.8861 CG-LTF (UOBAM)/+85.2462 ABLTF (Aberdeen)/+69.2214 UOBLTF (UOBAM)/+65.6647 |
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Post by realisedurgency on Nov 21, 2015 19:16:21 GMT 7
Great discussion Fletch and AyG. After getting the most out of the LTF option I really want to move some money to Singapore, for diversification and variety. I'm also looking at some online income streams and if those income streams become more than trivial I would prefer to send that income to Singapore and invest there as I won't need the income to cover my expenses in Thailand. Also to my understanding I would have to pay tax on offshore income remitted to Thailand.
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Post by francois on Nov 26, 2015 12:04:32 GMT 7
So i went to stan chart today in BKK, the sathorn branch.
I found them to be very helpful, the first 2 people i was referred to didn’t really know much about the different funds available, but then they called in a relationship manager who was extremely helpful and seemed very knowledgeable.
So even though it was clear that i wasn’t going to invest a large sum of money she spent quite some time explaining the different proposed investment portfolios, and we decided that moderately aggressive would be most suitable for me. Some of the proposed funds in her proposed portfolio required an initial investment that was too high for me (krungsi global and krungsi asian) but she proposed some other funds that were more suitable.
In the end she proposed following
25% TMB M Plus
15 % Krugthai Thanasap fund
20% TMB Global Quality Growth
15 % K European Equity
15 % K Japan
15% Aberdeen India Growth
Everything seemed pretty straightforward, opening the accounts etc. So i might just do a bit more research and then go back in a couple of weeks when i have some time and go with this.
For buying and selling i would have to go to BKK every time, not possible over internet. Fax may be possible but they didn’t seem very eager.
So this was a much better experience than going to the local tmb branch in chiang rai, they’re just more used to handling these kind of request here i suppose.
If you have any concerns / ideas about the proposed portfolio, please let me know. She gave me lots of paperwork about the different funds but it’s like chinese to me :-) Worse than Chinese actually, i think i’d do better deciphering chinese.
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