chiangmai
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Post by chiangmai on Nov 6, 2017 14:17:05 GMT 7
This is probably one for Fletch but if anyone else knows, please jump in:
Bangkok Bank no longer has a relationship with HSBC UK, as such all transfers from HSBC UK now go via Natwest and incur a £35 corespondent banking charge.
The question is why and does this extend to HSBC globally.? It's an odd scenario since both are members of SWIFT yet they appear not to have a relationship that allows them to interact. My guess is this is something to do with FATCA and money laundering but nobody seems to know.
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AyG
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Post by AyG on Nov 6, 2017 14:58:45 GMT 7
It's an odd scenario since both are members of SWIFT yet they appear not to have a relationship that allows them to interact. SWIFT is simply a secure messaging service for sending instructions. It has nothing to do with the actual transfer of monies.
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chiangmai
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Post by chiangmai on Nov 6, 2017 15:11:41 GMT 7
It's an odd scenario since both are members of SWIFT yet they appear not to have a relationship that allows them to interact. SWIFT is simply a secure messaging service for sending instructions. It has nothing to do with the actual transfer of monies. Yes I'm very aware of that. It's odd however that since SWIFT is owned by its members who benefit and profit from its use, two members who can and do interact and settle with all other members via SWIFT, chose not to interact with each other, I'm trying to understand the reason why that should be. HSBC customers wanting to transfer funds to BB Thailand must now pay a £35 charge to another UK bank, Nat West and that seems peculiar since both BB and HSBC are global banks, both having a presence in some form in both countries, Thailand and the UK.
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Post by rgs2001uk on Nov 6, 2017 15:19:13 GMT 7
Transferwise is the way to go these days.
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chiangmai
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Post by chiangmai on Nov 6, 2017 15:21:59 GMT 7
Transferwise is the way to go these days. This is not for me it's just an issue I'm trying to understand. But Transferwise.....it's OK for transferring in but they can't transfer out, not allowed to by BOT.
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Post by rgs2001uk on Nov 6, 2017 15:31:36 GMT 7
SWIFT is simply a secure messaging service for sending instructions. It has nothing to do with the actual transfer of monies. Yes I'm very aware of that. It's odd however that since SWIFT is owned by its members who benefit and profit from its use, two members who can and do interact and settle with all other members via SWIFT, chose not to interact with each other, I'm trying to understand the reason why that should be. HSBC customers wanting to transfer funds to BB Thailand must now pay a £35 charge to another UK bank, Nat West and that seems peculiar since both BB and HSBC are global banks, both having a presence in some form in both countries, Thailand and the UK. Simple answer, change your Thai bank account to another Thai bank. I am with HSBC in the UK and have never had to pay a surcharge, then again the tx wasnt to BBL. Is this a new charge thats been introduced?
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AyG
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Post by AyG on Nov 6, 2017 15:33:38 GMT 7
It's odd however that since SWIFT is owned by its members who benefit and profit from its use, two members who can and do interact and settle with all other members via SWIFT, chose not to interact with each other They do not settle via SWIFT. SWIFT doesn't touch cash at all; SWIFT is nothing other than a messaging service. Within an individual country settlement is typically facilitated by the central bank. So, for example, in the UK most (if not all) banks have accounts with the Bank of England. Settlement is done via the BOE accounts. So, each bank only needs one account with the BOE to settle with any other bank. When you go international, things are much more complex. It's impossible for a bank to have an account with all the other banks with which a transaction may need to be settled. In practice a bank may have a few accounts with overseas banks with which they will deal with directly (or it may have none). They then also have accounts with a small number of other banks which act as intermediaries. Consider, for example, a New Zealand bank wanting to transfer money to a UK bank. They'd simply need a relationship with a UK bank (the correspondent bank), which could, on their behalf, settle with any UK bank via the BOE. It costs a bank money to maintain accounts with other banks - particularly foreign ones. HSBC's decision to terminate its direct relationship with Bangkok Bank may simply be a commercial one of too little business (and hence profit) to make it worthwhile maintaining the direct relationship.
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chiangmai
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Post by chiangmai on Nov 6, 2017 15:56:26 GMT 7
Yes I'm very aware of that. It's odd however that since SWIFT is owned by its members who benefit and profit from its use, two members who can and do interact and settle with all other members via SWIFT, chose not to interact with each other, I'm trying to understand the reason why that should be. HSBC customers wanting to transfer funds to BB Thailand must now pay a £35 charge to another UK bank, Nat West and that seems peculiar since both BB and HSBC are global banks, both having a presence in some form in both countries, Thailand and the UK. Simple answer, change your Thai bank account to another Thai bank. I am with HSBC in the UK and have never had to pay a surcharge, then again the tx wasnt to BBL. Is this a new charge thats been introduced? I do not have an account with BBL, I've never had an account with BBL, my bank account in Thailand is UOB, this is not about me! Yes it's a fairly recent charge, apparently and I'm just trying to understand the reason behind it, Ayg in his post is probably getting close with the answer.
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Post by Fletchsmile on Nov 6, 2017 16:07:03 GMT 7
A correspondent bank is a bank in another country that provides certain financial transactions and services to another bank in another country. Decent definition and overview here: www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/071715/what-role-does-correspondent-bank-play-international-transaction.aspSo someone like HSBC could pick one or more correspondent banks in Thailand to handle these services/transactions there. In the past it seems BBL was (one of) HSBC's correspondent banks in Thailand. They may / may not have had other correspondent banks. If they did though they wouldn't have every bank in Thailand as a correspondent bank though. Just one or maybe a handful. I mention this just because SWIFT was mentioned above. While most banks in Thailand will be SWIFT members, most banks would not have been correspondent banks for HSBC. Even though technically HSBC could send SWIFT messages back and forth to them, they would not necessarily be the bank(s) HSBC wanted to provide transactions/services for them, which is what a correspondent bank does. I suspect it's commercial reasons behind it all that HSBC no longer wants to have a correspondent bank in Thailand. (If that is indeed the case - I haven't checked it out). Instead just route business via NatWest. Possible that they just decided that it was more cost-effective. Could be from the point of view of how much business they do, increasing regulatory/ admin costs, or simple general cost cutting. i.e any number of reasons any likely in combination. If you think of all the countries in the world, and then think of all the banks you could choose to be a correspondent bank or not, that's a lot of possibilities and combinations. That someone changes their correspondent banks from time to time isn't a big surprise. Now HSBC no longer has a retail presence in Thailand, I suspect there's also less demand from its customers in relation to Thailand. So all in all likely a commercial decision
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chiangmai
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Post by chiangmai on Nov 6, 2017 16:33:03 GMT 7
A correspondent bank is a bank in another country that provides certain financial transactions and services to another bank in another country. Decent definition and overview here: www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/071715/what-role-does-correspondent-bank-play-international-transaction.aspSo someone like HSBC could pick one or more correspondent banks in Thailand to handle these services/transactions there. In the past it seems BBL was (one of) HSBC's correspondent banks in Thailand. They may / may not have had other correspondent banks. If they did though they wouldn't have every bank in Thailand as a correspondent bank though. Just one or maybe a handful. I mention this just because SWIFT was mentioned above. While most banks in Thailand will be SWIFT members, most banks would not have been correspondent banks for HSBC. Even though technically HSBC could send SWIFT messages back and forth to them, they would not necessarily be the bank(s) HSBC wanted to provide transactions/services for them, which is what a correspondent bank does. I suspect it's commercial reasons behind it all that HSBC no longer wants to have a correspondent bank in Thailand. (If that is indeed the case - I haven't checked it out). Instead just route business via NatWest. Possible that they just decided that it was more cost-effective. Could be from the point of view of how much business they do, increasing regulatory/ admin costs, or simple general cost cutting. i.e any number of reasons any likely in combination. If you think of all the countries in the world, and then think of all the banks you could choose to be a correspondent bank or not, that's a lot of possibilities and combinations. That someone changes their correspondent banks from time to time isn't a big surprise. Now HSBC no longer has a retail presence in Thailand, I suspect there's also less demand from its customers in relation to Thailand. So all in all likely a commercial decision Surely a bank (such as HSBC) only enters into a correspondent banking relationship with another bank when there are services in the destination country that it can't provide itself? If an HSBC UK customer wants to transfer funds from his own UK Sterling account to his own THB account in Thailand, all BB is doing is reciving funds which it then converts on its own terms, why would that require a correspondent bank relationship in order to conclude the transaction?
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Post by Fletchsmile on Nov 6, 2017 16:42:35 GMT 7
Yes HSBC isn't part of the Thai clearing systems. So it needs to either 1) have BBL or someone else provide the transaction clearing and currency conversion on its behalf. So if someone sent money from HSBC UK to their Thai Tisco account in Thailand it could possibly have gone thru BBL first; or 2) they now route it thru Nat West in the UK. Nat West in the UK now sorts out all the routing via Thailand
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chiangmai
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Post by chiangmai on Nov 6, 2017 16:45:03 GMT 7
Yes HSBC isn't part of the Thai clearing systems. So it needs to either 1) have BBL or someone else provide the transaction clearing and currency conversion on its behalf. So if someone sent money from HSBC UK to their Thai Tisco account in Thailand it could possibly have gone thru BBL first; or 2) they now route it thru Nat West in the UK. Nat West in the UK now sorts out all the routing via Thailand OK, so membership of the destination country clearing system is the reason, now I understand, thanks.
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Post by Fletchsmile on Nov 7, 2017 11:07:38 GMT 7
It isn't an easy thing to explain in a few sentences to be honest. As mentioned above, if you think of all the banks in the world, all the different countries, all the different currencies and all the different payment systems in use then there are a lot of combinations. So to know what exactly the cause is for this change (if indeed it has changed at all) is going to be difficult for anyone outside HSBC and/or BBL. What you can say, if there's a starting and ending bank, a key element is if they have a direct relationship with each other. If they don't correspondent bank(s) needs to come into play. The article below explains some of it quite well. Not all, as there are a few other dimensions, but is a decent overview of some of the factors. You need to read the entire article though as what they explain near the start isn't really what happens and is just building the picture. gendal.me/2013/11/24/a-simple-explanation-of-how-money-moves-around-the-banking-system/
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Post by bunny boiler on Nov 7, 2017 14:53:38 GMT 7
All I know is they charge like a wounded bull. I have five different HSBC accounts in different countries and none of them have any relationship with each other, rather absurd that.
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chiangmai
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Post by chiangmai on Nov 7, 2017 15:41:51 GMT 7
It isn't an easy thing to explain in a few sentences to be honest. As mentioned above, if you think of all the banks in the world, all the different countries, all the different currencies and all the different payment systems in use then there are a lot of combinations. So to know what exactly the cause is for this change (if indeed it has changed at all) is going to be difficult for anyone outside HSBC and/or BBL. What you can say, if there's a starting and ending bank, a key element is if they have a direct relationship with each other. If they don't correspondent bank(s) needs to come into play. The article below explains some of it quite well. Not all, as there are a few other dimensions, but is a decent overview of some of the factors. You need to read the entire article though as what they explain near the start isn't really what happens and is just building the picture. gendal.me/2013/11/24/a-simple-explanation-of-how-money-moves-around-the-banking-system/Have you got something with pictures? No seriously, that's pretty descriptive actually, thanks.
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