rubl
Crazy Mango Extraordinaire
The wondering type
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Post by rubl on Dec 28, 2017 18:09:09 GMT 7
I undestand. I grrew up protestant in a divided city but nobody ever toldnme why I was a Protestant Most people in our divided cities don't know why they are either protestant or Catholic. My Catholic mother says they are not allowed to know, told to follow without question. Protestants have no excuse. We were born of the Guttenberg printing press. Martin Luther went on a leaflet war with the Roman church, knowing that to question, the thirst for knowledge, was key to progress. Examine the Western world through protestant eyes. Then you will understand that it was Luther's genius and insight that created the first tier countries such as the UK, USA, Scandinavia, Holland etc. Look at NAFTA. Three countries, two protestant, one Catholic. The Catholic country is the basket case, just as the rest of that continent is a basket case. They'll never truly progress until they turn their back on the Catholic church. Ir's happening. A bit too black vs. white methinks. In case of the Netherlands the 'golden' age came and went with Protestants (mostly Calvinists) still in charge. Only in the 19th century with a change in the Constitution in 1848 Catholics, non-mainstream Protestants and non-Christians gained 'equal' rights. Nowadays it's about 50/50 for 'believers' (Catholics vs. other Christians) but atheists at 27% (2016)
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rott
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Post by rott on Dec 28, 2017 18:56:09 GMT 7
Rubl I am surprised that you do not take blether's general meaning. Protestant countries largely encouraged study and knowledge rather than the mental straitjacket of blind obedience. Thus you have the more advanced North American states and the corruption and poverty of Central and South America. Sweeping generalisations I agree, but the point is there.
Yes nowadays Holland is 50/50, sadly tolerance has bred apathy. When Holland was introducing tolerance what was the position in Italy, Spain and Portugal?
In France do you think there are so few Protestants because they all rejected the Reformation or because so many were murdered?
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rott
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Post by rott on Dec 28, 2017 19:07:15 GMT 7
Romans was one of Luther's favourite books and my understanding of chapter 7 is that we regard the spirit of the old law but not the physical practice of it. We can surely not mention Luther and Scripture without quoting from Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith". Not forgetting that with the development of the Reformation, Luther does not strictly warrant the description "Protestant" as he emphatically refused to deny the mass.
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Post by rgs2001uk on Dec 28, 2017 21:06:59 GMT 7
You're lucky it wasn't French, which was the language of court into the fifteenth century. You forgot to mention Latin, which was the language used to suppress the masses ( no pun intended).
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Post by rgs2001uk on Dec 28, 2017 21:14:02 GMT 7
The Bible is a whole different story. "Sola Scriptura" is one of the five pillars of the Reformation, - if it cannot be proven from Scripture it is not a true Christian doctrine. The early fathers compiled the Bible and the Roman and Orthodox churches claim the credit for this, disregarding that those who put the Bible together would be unlikely to recognise Christianity in either of those bodies. Rome then proceeded to block the laity from reading the Bible, not wanting people to compare Scripture with their teachings. As an atheist I only have a passing interest in the subject. Has anyone ever read the bible of the gnostics/orthodox churches? How do they differ from the church of romes version? From what I remember years ago, I can recall no mention of such things as, confession, original sin, seven deadly sins etc etc. Where did that little lot appear from?
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rubl
Crazy Mango Extraordinaire
The wondering type
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Post by rubl on Dec 28, 2017 22:06:14 GMT 7
Rubl I am surprised that you do not take blether's general meaning. Protestant countries largely encouraged study and knowledge rather than the mental straitjacket of blind obedience. Thus you have the more advanced North American states and the corruption and poverty of Central and South America. Sweeping generalisations I agree, but the point is there. Yes nowadays Holland is 50/50, sadly tolerance has bred apathy. When Holland was introducing tolerance what was the position in Italy, Spain and Portugal? In France do you think there are so few Protestants because they all rejected the Reformation or because so many were murdered? Bavaria is still mainly Catholic and doing extremely well. Trump's most solid supporters are Christians like in the old Coal areas, down South, real upright people some have it and above all gun loving Christians (like Roy Moore). Britains Catholics had no real choice after Henry VIII took over the Church. There was a reason the Pilgrim Fathers wanted to sail away and Catholicism wasn't the reason. The general meaning theBleth may profess may be a wee bit too general. I don't think there's significant difference between the various Christian believes. Mind you, I doubt the Pope would call me a real Catholic PS probably unnecessary to add, but to be sure: IMHO
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Post by rgs2001uk on Dec 28, 2017 22:11:00 GMT 7
^^^^, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Catholic_ChurchThe term "Old Catholic" was first used in 1853 to describe the members of the See of Utrecht who did not recognize any infallible papal authority. Later Catholics who disagreed with the Roman Catholic dogma of papal infallibility as defined by the First Vatican Council (1870) had no bishop and joined with Utrecht to form the UU. These Old Catholic churches today are found substantially in Germany, Switzerland, the Netherlands, and Austria. Union of Utrecht Old Catholic churches are not generally found outside of Western Europe.
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rubl
Crazy Mango Extraordinaire
The wondering type
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Post by rubl on Dec 28, 2017 22:15:28 GMT 7
You're lucky it wasn't French, which was the language of court into the fifteenth century. You forgot to mention Latin, which was the language used to suppress the masses ( no pun intended). King Alfred the Great started translating books (and bibles) into olde Ænglish, his law code is still a well studied example. Things changed a bit when the (French) Normans took over. Only after a few hundred years (and a losing war) they decided to drop the French and promote English.
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rubl
Crazy Mango Extraordinaire
The wondering type
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Post by rubl on Dec 28, 2017 22:17:07 GMT 7
^^^^, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Catholic_ChurchThe term "Old Catholic" was first used in 1853 to describe the members of the See of Utrecht who did not recognize any infallible papal authority. Later Catholics who disagreed with the Roman Catholic dogma of papal infallibility as defined by the First Vatican Council (1870) had no bishop and joined with Utrecht to form the UU. These Old Catholic churches today are found substantially in Germany, Switzerland, the Netherlands, and Austria. Union of Utrecht Old Catholic churches are not generally found outside of Western Europe.I'm a 'regular' Roman Catholic, but also a wondering type
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Post by rgs2001uk on Dec 29, 2017 12:24:19 GMT 7
Uncle, after reading about your well documented postings and travels, shouldn't that be, the wandering type.
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siampolee
Detective
Alive alive O
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Post by siampolee on Dec 29, 2017 14:18:19 GMT 7
I have it on good authority from one of my better Bangkok sources that he has heard rubl warbling the ditty below when going to confession concerning his wondering and subsequent ecclesiastical wanderings.
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rott
Crazy Mango Extraordinaire
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Post by rott on Dec 31, 2017 10:27:45 GMT 7
Rubl I am surprised that you do not take blether's general meaning. Protestant countries largely encouraged study and knowledge rather than the mental straitjacket of blind obedience. Thus you have the more advanced North American states and the corruption and poverty of Central and South America. Sweeping generalisations I agree, but the point is there. Yes nowadays Holland is 50/50, sadly tolerance has bred apathy. When Holland was introducing tolerance what was the position in Italy, Spain and Portugal? In France do you think there are so few Protestants because they all rejected the Reformation or because so many were murdered? Bavaria is still mainly Catholic and doing extremely well. Trump's most solid supporters are Christians like in the old Coal areas, down South, real upright people some have it and above all gun loving Christians (like Roy Moore). Britains Catholics had no real choice after Henry VIII took over the Church. There was a reason the Pilgrim Fathers wanted to sail away and Catholicism wasn't the reason. The general meaning theBleth may profess may be a wee bit too general. I don't think there's significant difference between the various Christian believes. Mind you, I doubt the Pope would call me a real Catholic PS probably unnecessary to add, but to be sure: IMHO Bavaria? I did say generally and there is always the exception that proves the rule. Roy Moore? Well Hitler was baptised RC, same as Adams and McGuinness proves nowt except that you are trailing red herrings to obscure the point. Yes the Pilgrim Fathers were free to sail away they were not burned at the stake.
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rott
Crazy Mango Extraordinaire
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Post by rott on Dec 31, 2017 10:37:19 GMT 7
No significant difference? Transubstantiation not significant? Years after the split with Rome Henry introduced the death penalty for anyone denying the doctrine. Don't forget that, to coin a phrase, "he had a dispute with the Pope, he had no dispute with Popery". And the word Catholic. It is said that the only ones entitled to so describe themselves are Protestants, who adopt the Reformation priciple of "The Universal Spiritual Priesthood of all Believers".
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me
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Post by me on Dec 31, 2017 10:52:43 GMT 7
No significant difference? Transubstantiation not significant? Years after the split with Rome Henry introduced the death penalty for anyone denying the doctrine. Don't forget that, to coin a phrase, "he had a dispute with the Pope, he had no dispute with Popery". And the word Catholic. It is said that the only ones entitled to so describe themselves are Protestants, who adopt the Reformation priciple of "The Universal Spiritual Priesthood of all Believers". Who says canabilism is not signifigent....
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rubl
Crazy Mango Extraordinaire
The wondering type
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Post by rubl on Dec 31, 2017 11:45:23 GMT 7
Bavaria is still mainly Catholic and doing extremely well. Trump's most solid supporters are Christians like in the old Coal areas, down South, real upright people some have it and above all gun loving Christians (like Roy Moore). Britains Catholics had no real choice after Henry VIII took over the Church. There was a reason the Pilgrim Fathers wanted to sail away and Catholicism wasn't the reason. The general meaning theBleth may profess may be a wee bit too general. I don't think there's significant difference between the various Christian believes. Mind you, I doubt the Pope would call me a real Catholic PS probably unnecessary to add, but to be sure: IMHO Bavaria? I did say generally and there is always the exception that proves the rule. Roy Moore? Well Hitler was baptised RC, same as Adams and McGuinness proves nowt except that you are trailing red herrings to obscure the point. Yes the Pilgrim Fathers were free to sail away they were not burned at the stake. The point some tried to make was 'Catholics are way behind it'. A point proven by being selective in which arguments you accept. PS Pilgrim fathers 'escaped' from England if I remember correctly. The England which had completely broken with Rome, the England which had it's own, real Church, the England which still burned people at the stake. Must be because the CoE traces its roots back to 3rd century Britain and 6th century mission of Augustine of Canterbury PPS to repeat I don't think there's significant difference between the various Christian believes. Read more: bigmango.boards.net/thread/12187/released-old-law-bound-christ?page=3#ixzz52oKq4idw
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