fk
Crazy Mango
Posts: 37
Likes: 8
|
Post by fk on Jan 20, 2019 14:22:57 GMT 7
Hi, First post. Ignore my username, when I made it, there was something wrong with the webpage and even the most ridiculous names with random letters and numbers were saying taken and in frustration I typed in this and it somehow worked so I used that. Anyway, Can anyone tell me if they know of a way for a Thai person to invest in an all-world cap weighted index relatively cheaply and safely? I really have no idea if Interactive Brokers are available for Thai people. That would be ideal - broker far more likely to be trustworthy, access to all stock exchanges including the UK and wide range of Irish ETFs including Vanguard and iShares. But no idea how a Thai person would transfer money to IB, maybe through the one HSBC branch in Bangkok or something? My assumption is that there is a high chance this won't be an option, but if anyone has info on it, please let me know. Other than that, are there any low-cost trustworthy brokerage firms in Thailand that offer global cap weighted index funds? Thanks for any info.
Cheers
|
|
AyG
Crazy Mango Extraordinaire
Posts: 5,871
Likes: 4,555
|
Post by AyG on Jan 20, 2019 16:49:16 GMT 7
Brokers such as www.poems.in.th/index.aspx?lang=en give access to foreign markets including the London Stock Exchange. No need to transfer money overseas with the associated paperwork and cost. Not as cheap as discount brokers in the US and UK. However, if you're "buy and hold" the difference is probably negligible.
|
|
|
Post by Fletchsmile on Jan 21, 2019 13:10:47 GMT 7
As far as I know there's nothing to stop a Thai person opening an account with interactive brokers. There are quite a few people based in Thailand that use them. I don't myself. Transferring money to an account would be pretty much the same as anyone else opening and transferring money into an IB account. The only difference would be the requirements of a bank or other financial intermediary that would be doing the transfer to IB. eg different paperwork/ online procedures for transferring from say a Thai bank to IB compared to say a UK bank to IB. That depends on the transferring requirements though not IB as receiver Their website lists Thailand as an available country www.interactivebrokers.com/en/index.php?f=7021My wife is a joint account holder with me on a securities trading account with Stan Chart Sing1pore. Allows trading on a dozen or so stock exchanges worldwide for shares, ETFs, ITs etc. We can also buy mutual funds/ unit trusts thru their WM arm. My wife would be able to open in her name only. Just joint accounts better suit our needs, tax etc. As AyG mentions there are various brokers in Thailand that offer access to world markets. Dealing costs a bit more than if done thru other locations. But in return you avoid various admin, overseas transfer costs etc, as you're dealing with a Thai entity.
|
|
fk
Crazy Mango
Posts: 37
Likes: 8
|
Post by fk on Jan 23, 2019 19:18:39 GMT 7
AyG. Thanks. Do you use Phillips Capital yourself? Fletchsmile . Good point. Even if they had to convert currency, at least I would know it was with IB. I have trust issues with Thai companies for obvious reasons. Also, there would be a big plus with IB if a Thai person could open a bank account outside Thailand and take out money at the end of the Thai financial year to an outside Thai bank account and wait for the new financial year to transfer it into Thailand because as I understand, it is not taxable when earned overseas and not brought in during the same financial year. Although not sure how easy (or even possible) it would be for a Thai person to open a bank account outside Thailand. Worth the hassle for no tax to be paid on it though.
|
|
|
Post by Fletchsmile on Jan 25, 2019 16:32:33 GMT 7
fk, Not sure why you have trust issues with Thai companies. Is it just that you havem't been here so long and not familiar with them yet? I've been dealing with various banks, brokers, asset management firms for about 20 years. While I had reservations at first, I don't have many at all with the ones I use now, and have established some decent relationships. You hear a lot about don't invest in Thailand blah blah blah, particularly at first and from so called "experts". For me I listened, but dipped my toes in anyway. As I gained confidence and experience, things are fine. On bringing money in and tax. Thai authorities don't seem particularly interested in individuals on this. I don't know anyone who's been captured by it, though they may exist. The focus is more on companies by tax authorities than individuals. Also transfers from capital aren't captured by the tax rules either. Thais can open bank accounts outside Thailand (almost like) anyone else. There are a few restrictions on how much they can officially move/ invest outside Thailand but we're generally talking millions of USD here, not most people's day to day accounts. As mentioned my (Thai) wife has joint accounts with me. No problem. If she wanted another account in Singapore for anyone reason, it would be no problem. Just speak to our relationship manager and ask them to scan the docs over which she would sign, scan and send back. Very easy as an existing account holder. Probably more work for a completely new account, but should be OK. It would depend on who you open an account with, what status you have, how much etc, whether you would need to visit in person first time to open an account. GavinK on here recently opened some banks accounts in Singapore. I don't think he actually needed to visit Singapore, but you could check with him.
For a stock broker I'd say less likely to need to visit in person to open an account outside Thailand
|
|
fk
Crazy Mango
Posts: 37
Likes: 8
|
Post by fk on Jan 30, 2019 18:51:18 GMT 7
Thanks for the reply Fletchsmile,
I have issues with Thai companies because they are under the Thai law which means whoever knows someone or pays the most under the table is in the right. Maybe companies are somehow different to the rest of the law but also it's just very possible nobody has targeted you. Either way, I just can't bring myself to take that chance. Anyway moving on.
I wasn't aware that you could open offshore bank accounts without even going there. Might be due to you having an account there. I suppose even if needing to go there in person, it's really not that expensive for a trip for a couple of days, plus could make a holiday out of it.
Yes I am with Internet Brokers and it was all done online, so that would not be an issue, and thanks for the link mentioning Thailand by them.
So yes this seems like the most sensible option.
For a Thai person, they may not want to another bank outside of the country, I suppose they would just need to open a foreign currency account in Thailand, likely USD, convert it, and then send that currency directly to Interactive Brokers and it would works just as well.
Thanks very much for the info.
|
|
|
Post by rgs2001uk on Jan 30, 2019 20:23:05 GMT 7
Head to Aberdeen Asset Mgt and UOB, right next to each other on Silom Rd.
I am in a similair position, I need to keep it simple, keep it to something my mrs can understand.
|
|
|
Post by Fletchsmile on Jan 31, 2019 11:01:17 GMT 7
Another way to achieve the same goal is to look at Thai unit trusts/mutual funds that feed into overseas ETFs, index or tracker funds. TMB asset management have a particular focus in this area, but others like Krungsri Asset Management also do. www.tmbameastspring.com/home/en/mutual-fund-nav.php?accept=1I hold the following via this route for our kids: TMB SET50 fund = Thai equities, TMB World Equity Index Fund = Global Equities TMB Emerging Markets Equity Index Fund = Emerging Market equities, TMB Property Income Plus Fund = REITs, property sector For example the TMB World Equity Index Fund invests in Lyxor UCITS ETF MSCI WORLD www.tmbameastspring.com/home/en/mutual-fund-detail.php?f=144The main advantage is convenience of being able to invest from Thailand and on small amounts. The main disadvantage is long run cost. In reality if you are looking for low costs then the cheapest way will usually be to invest from outside Thailand. Particularly on larger amounts. You'll find it costs you ball park 1% p.a. give or take in extra annual charges. But it does save a lot of admin, costs of transferring money offshore (and back), FX costs to change currencies (and back), simplifies tax etc etc. For our kids this made sense because of ease of opening an account here, smaller amounts, regular savings. If we try to do overseas for them transaction costs on small regular savings become prohibitive. Not to mention hassle in opening an account
|
|
fk
Crazy Mango
Posts: 37
Likes: 8
|
Post by fk on Jan 31, 2019 19:09:46 GMT 7
Fletchsmile,
Thank you. Yes the MSCI world is perfect. No active manager to mess it up.
I went to check it out before reading the rest of your post and was thinking .. wow 1% is a lot. Then came back to see you mentioned that further down.
But yes, for a Thai person, dealing with an all English non-Thai broker such as IB would be daunting and would often rely on help of other people, which is not ideal. Plus for anyone in the first few years of investing, the different between a 0.2% fee of not much and a 1% fee of not much, is still not much.
Thanks for the info - really appreciate it.
Oh by the way, probably a long shot, but any idea if there is a global cap-weighted index fund that is THB-hedged?
|
|
|
Post by Fletchsmile on Feb 1, 2019 11:32:33 GMT 7
....
Oh by the way, probably a long shot, but any idea if there is a global cap-weighted index fund that is THB-hedged? There aren't many THB-hedged funds around. I can't recall any global cap-weighted index ones.
Krungsri have a few index unit trusts/mutual funds that are hedged for example. They're usually shown KF then H (Hedged) then INDX at the end, eg KFHUSINDX, KFHJPINDX for US and Japan
Again they will be higher on cost. eg KFHUSINDX, KFHJPINDX
If you can't find a hedged world index fund, one approach may be using other index trackers in proportion to their weightings in the MSCI index, particularly given just over 60% is US anyway,
eg MSCI world index weightings show 61.73% US, 8.6% Japan. So if you put in say 100,000 and you invested 62k in KFHUSINDX and 8/9k in KFJPINDX you'd be 70% there
Morningstar have a useful tool for screening funds, including ETFs, you could such for others
|
|
fk
Crazy Mango
Posts: 37
Likes: 8
|
Post by fk on Feb 7, 2019 21:26:42 GMT 7
Thanks again Fletchsmile. For the bond funds on TMB, have you by any chance looked into those as to the difference between these 3? • TMB Thanaplus Fund • TMB Bond Fund • TMB Aggregate Bond Fund First says duration of 0.78 years, which is incredibly short duration, so I wonder how that compares to the "ultra short" duration bonds. Ok just checked and it says 0.41 years. Not sure how that is materially different. 0.45 ER Second says 2.74 years. credit ratings are quite a lot lower and I'm not even sure how the credit ratings for the first one compare to something like an all-market bond index like BND in the US. 0.6 ER Third duration of 1.69 years. Credit rating looks closer to the first than the second 0.54 ER I suppose in a low inflation environment such as this, combined with the instability of being an emerging market (that is under a coup, and is now a dictatorship as of the 2016 "referendum"), maybe shorter bond duration makes more sense. Wondering if you or anyone else has thoughts on fixed interest investments over here. Cheers
|
|
chiangmai
Crazy Mango Extraordinaire
Posts: 6,312
Likes: 5,334
|
Post by chiangmai on Feb 8, 2019 7:52:06 GMT 7
Thanks again Fletchsmile. For the bond funds on TMB, have you by any chance looked into those as to the difference between these 3? • TMB Thanaplus Fund • TMB Bond Fund • TMB Aggregate Bond Fund First says duration of 0.78 years, which is incredibly short duration, so I wonder how that compares to the "ultra short" duration bonds. Ok just checked and it says 0.41 years. Not sure how that is materially different. 0.45 ER Second says 2.74 years. credit ratings are quite a lot lower and I'm not even sure how the credit ratings for the first one compare to something like an all-market bond index like BND in the US. 0.6 ER Third duration of 1.69 years. Credit rating looks closer to the first than the second 0.54 ER I suppose in a low inflation environment such as this, combined with the instability of being an emerging market (that is under a coup, and is now a dictatorship as of the 2016 "referendum"), maybe shorter bond duration makes more sense. Wondering if you or anyone else has thoughts on fixed interest investments over here. Cheers As I recall the argument against is fees, cost of ownership or participation in Thailand has typically been too high to make them a sensible investment proposition....perhaps OK for pension funds though or for retirees wanting security.
|
|
AyG
Crazy Mango Extraordinaire
Posts: 5,871
Likes: 4,555
|
Post by AyG on Feb 8, 2019 10:13:29 GMT 7
I suppose in a low inflation environment such as this, combined with the instability of being an emerging market (that is under a coup, and is now a dictatorship as of the 2016 "referendum"), maybe shorter bond duration makes more sense. I don't believe that being an emerging market is particularly relevant here, and the low inflation environment is only very indirectly related. What is key is that interest rates are currently very low and pretty much the only way they can go is up, which will lead to a fall in the capital value of bonds. I think it would be foolish for anyone to invest in conventional bond funds under current market conditions. However, the shorter the duration, the less will be the loss of capital value. So, short duration bond funds could (in my opinion) have a role as a parking place for money whilst waiting to invest elsewhere as a slightly higher yielding alternative to staying in cash. More generally on bonds, my attitude has been shaped by the writings of Swensen, who manages Yale University's endowment. He points out that the upside for bonds is limited - for example, if you hold a 3% coupon bond issued at par to maturity you can only ever get 3%/year. For equities the upside is much higher. The endowment (and I) only hold a tiny proportion of our respective portfolios in conventional bonds. The only kind of bond that I think can have a role is inflation linked bonds such as US TIPS. They provide protection at times of rising inflation. However, Thailand has only ever issued (from memory) three such bonds.
|
|
|
Post by Fletchsmile on Feb 8, 2019 14:44:01 GMT 7
Thanks again Fletchsmile. For the bond funds on TMB, have you by any chance looked into those as to the difference between these 3? • TMB Thanaplus Fund • TMB Bond Fund • TMB Aggregate Bond Fund First says duration of 0.78 years, which is incredibly short duration, so I wonder how that compares to the "ultra short" duration bonds. Ok just checked and it says 0.41 years. Not sure how that is materially different. 0.45 ER Second says 2.74 years. credit ratings are quite a lot lower and I'm not even sure how the credit ratings for the first one compare to something like an all-market bond index like BND in the US. 0.6 ER Third duration of 1.69 years. Credit rating looks closer to the first than the second 0.54 ER I suppose in a low inflation environment such as this, combined with the instability of being an emerging market (that is under a coup, and is now a dictatorship as of the 2016 "referendum"), maybe shorter bond duration makes more sense. Wondering if you or anyone else has thoughts on fixed interest investments over here. Cheers Generally I don't find fixed interest investments attractive in Thailand.
For local currency, the returns on the 3 bond funds mentioned are similar to just holding in a good interest THB deposit account. I've held very small amounts of such funds - often given free when you invest in another fund - just to see. One area they might have a use is when the deposit protection act reduces guaranteed amounts from current levels; so as a why to diversify
|
|
|
Post by Fletchsmile on Feb 8, 2019 15:22:47 GMT 7
I suppose in a low inflation environment such as this, combined with the instability of being an emerging market (that is under a coup, and is now a dictatorship as of the 2016 "referendum"), maybe shorter bond duration makes more sense. I don't believe that being an emerging market is particularly relevant here, and the low inflation environment is only very indirectly related. What is key is that interest rates are currently very low and pretty much the only way they can go is up, which will lead to a fall in the capital value of bonds. I think it would be foolish for anyone to invest in conventional bond funds under current market conditions. However, the shorter the duration, the less will be the loss of capital value. So, short duration bond funds could (in my opinion) have a role as a parking place for money whilst waiting to invest elsewhere as a slightly higher yielding alternative to staying in cash. More generally on bonds, my attitude has been shaped by the writings of Swensen, who manages Yale University's endowment. He points out that the upside for bonds is limited - for example, if you hold a 3% coupon bond issued at par to maturity you can only ever get 3%/year. For equities the upside is much higher. The endowment (and I) only hold a tiny proportion of our respective portfolios in conventional bonds. The only kind of bond that I think can have a role is inflation linked bonds such as US TIPS. They provide protection at times of rising inflation. However, Thailand has only ever issued (from memory) three such bonds. While there's some merit in Swensen's views I think it oversimplifies to say only inflation linked bonds have a place. He is also very US focused.
I'm very comfortable holding Royal London Sterling extra yield bond fund in my portfolio. It comprises mainly fixed interest corporate bonds.
On something like a 3% coupon on bonds I would probably agree, but the dividend yield on RL GBP Extra yield is around 5% to 6% (closer to 6%), which is a different ball game altogether. It's also not difficult to find a 3% yield on equities so while I wouldn't go for the conventional 3% coupon, on the other hand it's not easy to find a solid equities portfolio with a 6% div yield.
Also from a tax perspective you can reclaim the tax credit on corporate bonds distributions if you hold in an ISA (done automatically by Hargreaves Lansdown) whereas you can't reclaim the tax credit on equity dividends
Over 5 years RL has returned just over 40% or around 7%p.a. That's in a flat/ slightly increasing rate environment.
This hits my hurdle rate of what I look for in investments. Rather than hold say only cash and equities, I would rather hold some of that cash in such a fund for the extra return compared to risk relative to cash, and the lower volatility relative to equities. So the diversification compared to equities and the steady income yield are useful.
I don't see interest rates rising in any of the key markets at a quick rate in the next few years. Slow / gradual increases maybe. So the risk of rising interest rates can get overblown sometimes. Even the US is now tailing off, and that's hardly been a fast pace. Inflation is also pretty benign at the moment and likely to remain so in the US, UK etc for the foreseeable
|
|