chiangmai
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Post by chiangmai on Mar 7, 2019 1:12:36 GMT 7
So once again, why not football clubs as an investment, if we can have traditional investments funds, debt, property, commodities, options, futures, wine, junk and whatever else, why not football clubs. I'm sorry if my point wasn't clear, but I feel that investment in football clubs is often driven by emotion, rather than logic. My concern is that Lindsell Train is similarly driven by emotion. More broadly, football clubs spend ludicrous amounts of money recruiting people to kick their pig bladders around a field. How can a single employee really be worth so many millions a year? See www.investopedia.com/managing-wealth/5-highestpaid-soccer-players/ for some further details. The economics simply (for me) don't add up. Given his high degree of success, I would seriously doubt the Nick Train is driven by his emotions! But I can agree that some football-loving investors might be swayed by their preferences or loyalty to their club and that is, of course, emotional rather logical and rational. By the same token however I can see no logical reason why investors who have no interest or loyalty to a sport should not invest in a football club, the bet is whether profits will increase as a result of the management team, the state of their balance sheet and the hiring choices they make, if all those things come right the team will win games and make money and investors will benefit. It seems to me to be a direct parallel to traditional fund investment........does the company have a solid management team, is the product a sound one, is the balance sheet sound etc etc. |
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Post by Fletchsmile on Mar 7, 2019 11:11:07 GMT 7
A lot of football club investments don't make sense and are driven more by loyalty/emotion. Many years ago I invested a small amount in a football investment trust. It did poorly and was eventually converted it into something else.
There are a handful of football clubs that are profitable and do well financiallly as investments. They are a minority though.
I haven't looked much at Celtic's or Juventus' finances. But as bussinesses they are strong brand names and leaders in their country. Celtic have dominated Scottish football for years - particularly after Rangers' demise and tax/financial issues. Juventus are probably the most successful club in Italian football's history. European Championship football income, branding, merchandise, high gate receipts, success on the pitch, prize money etc. High barriers to entry for competitors.
Not difficult to see how both could be among the handful of elite worthwhile football club investments. If I had to pick one Scottish football club to invest in, it would be Celtic. Juventus would be definitely in a short list of Italian clubs to research.
Don't know much at all about finances in WWE. But based on the Celtic and Juventus investments, I'd say LT have done their homework.
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88
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Post by 88 on Mar 7, 2019 15:45:15 GMT 7
disclaimer - this is my first serious post on an internet forum ever. pls bear with me
After following this thread, why do you all invest in these trusts? I have had a basket of high yielding FTSE stocks for decades now held in some offshore account, get nice regular divis and in the long run they all do well- apart from Lloyds. As a tax exile with no pension, what would be the advantage in selling a portion of personally held shares and investing in one of these trusts that the more knowledgeable investors here all rate?
A real investment regret is not having invested at least 1% in cryptos, and if they plummet again I would like to do this. As it stands my meager holdings of cryptos are fun to watch but will probably never be worth much.
my investments outside Thai are something like high yielding FTSE shares 60%, cash in bank 25%, antiques 15%
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chiangmai
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Post by chiangmai on Mar 7, 2019 16:11:47 GMT 7
As a beginner and absolute novice in this area I'll give you my reasons then others can chime in:
I wanted to spread the risk away from a UK centric investment, one which was spread globally across other economies and markets, I wound up being invested 15% each in UK, US, Europe, Asia, and EM, or thereabouts. I also wanted to hold funds rather than individual stock and shares, again to spread the investment risk across a range of sectors and companies. Finally, I wanted to use the services of well-respected fund managers who have solid track records, I can never compete with their expertise and I'm too old now to try and get fully up to a comfortable speed, using an expert fund manager is simply another way of derisking my investments.
That's not to say that my approach is right, it just means that it suits my outlook, if you're happy with holding UK stock alone that's great and I hope your good fortune continues.
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Post by rgs2001uk on Mar 7, 2019 16:46:19 GMT 7
disclaimer - this is my first serious post on an internet forum ever. pls bear with me After following this thread, why do you all invest in these trusts? I have had a basket of high yielding FTSE stocks for decades now held in some offshore account, get nice regular divis and in the long run they all do well- apart from Lloyds. As a tax exile with no pension, what would be the advantage in selling a portion of personally held shares and investing in one of these trusts that the more knowledgeable investors here all rate? A real investment regret is not having invested at least 1% in cryptos, and if they plummet again I would like to do this. As it stands my meager holdings of cryptos are fun to watch but will probably never be worth much. my investments outside Thai are something like high yielding FTSE shares 60%, cash in bank 25%, antiques 15% My thinking is, I am looking for long term capital growth, I don’t need a regular income. On reaching retirement age my regular income will come in the form of pensions. My best advice, stick to what you know and understand. |
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AyG
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Post by AyG on Mar 7, 2019 17:10:43 GMT 7
I have had a basket of high yielding FTSE stocks for decades now ... what would be the advantage in selling a portion of personally held shares and investing in one of these trusts that the more knowledgeable investors here all rate? (1) Your stocks are currently exposed to a single market. That market is vulnerable to shocks such as Brexit. You're really not very diversified. (2) A reasonably diversified portfolio would include perhaps a minimum of 20 stocks. Few amateurs have the time to properly screen that number of stocks before purchase and to monitor them subsequently. (3) A professional manager should be better at selecting/monitoring stocks than the amateur, and have more time to dedicate to doing so. He/she will also be backed up by a team of analysts who can do further research. This should lead to superior risk-adjusted performance. So, in short, in my opinion it's worth paying a modest management fee for expert stock selection, access to non-domestic markets, and instant diversification. |
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Post by Fletchsmile on Mar 7, 2019 17:34:13 GMT 7
There are a few benefits of using funds to invest instead of picking shares yourself. As collective investments they pool your money with other investors. This can help you diversify and reduce risk. Instead of you buying 100 pounds of shares in 1 company, you can effectively by 1 share in 100 companies, and spread your risk. Buying 1 share in a company would also be uneconomical. If all your money is in FTSE UK 100 stocks and that market tanks, that causes you more problems than say having some money in UK markets, some in Asia, some in US You can also: - get access to companies and markets that either wouldn't be economical to do yourself or you may not even have access to. - place your money with fund managers that have more expertise, more access to research, economies of scale etc than you do. No-one is an expert on everything. - Gives you the opportunity to be less hands on and spend your time on other things, in exchange for some additional costs Then there's also style aspects: - I don't particularly enjoy the transactional aspect of buying and selling individual equities. - I prefer just dealing at a fair value, place an order and done.
- My strengths and interests are also in looking at macro pictures and strategies rather than spending time on evaluating individual companies. Bit like management I prefer identifying the best people for the job than doing all the nitty gritty and trying to be best at every job myself Those are some of the reasons. There are more Hargreaves Lansdown have some decent guides on managing your money. I've read a lot of their stuff over the years, from beginner to bit more advanced and found them useful in buidling knowledge. Below is a link to some of their stuff on funds: www.hl.co.uk/beginners-guides/guide-to-funds |
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AyG
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Post by AyG on Mar 7, 2019 19:34:57 GMT 7
That's a fun one. You'd think that as a fund gets larger the fees would go down. Unfortunately, that's often not the case. The fund management houses are simply greedy. |
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Post by Fletchsmile on Mar 7, 2019 19:42:20 GMT 7
So once again, why not football clubs as an investment, if we can have traditional investments funds, debt, property, commodities, options, futures, wine, junk and whatever else, why not football clubs. I'm sorry if my point wasn't clear, but I feel that investment in football clubs is often driven by emotion, rather than logic. My concern is that Lindsell Train is similarly driven by emotion. More broadly, football clubs spend ludicrous amounts of money recruiting people to kick their pig bladders around a field. How can a single employee really be worth so many millions a year? See www.investopedia.com/managing-wealth/5-highestpaid-soccer-players/ for some further details. The economics simply (for me) don't add up.
Nick Train buys more Celtic on Brendan Rodgers dip
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Post by Fletchsmile on Mar 13, 2019 15:59:09 GMT 7
One of the things that makes me feel uncomfortable about Lindsell Train is the investment in the likes of Celtic, Juventus and the WWE. Indeed, they now have a very substantial chunk of Celtic shares. ( www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sport/football/3955822/london-investment-firm-lindsell-train-has-increased-its-stake-in-celtic/ ) Is it just I (who has absolutely no interest in sports whatsoever), or do others feel uncomfortable with these sorts of somewhat unconventional investments? My gut feel is that the fund managers are simply investing other people's money (perhaps somewhat emotionally) in teams they support. Juventus up over 17% today  |
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AyG
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Post by AyG on Mar 13, 2019 17:30:16 GMT 7
One of the things that makes me feel uncomfortable about Lindsell Train is the investment in the likes of Celtic, Juventus and the WWE. Indeed, they now have a very substantial chunk of Celtic shares. ( www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sport/football/3955822/london-investment-firm-lindsell-train-has-increased-its-stake-in-celtic/ ) Is it just I (who has absolutely no interest in sports whatsoever), or do others feel uncomfortable with these sorts of somewhat unconventional investments? My gut feel is that the fund managers are simply investing other people's money (perhaps somewhat emotionally) in teams they support. Juventus up over 17% today Knowing nothing about this sort of thing, I looked for an explanation, and found a site, football-italia.net. "Juventus’ share price shot up by over 20 percent in wake of their Champions League comeback against Atletico Madrid.
"Juve opened the Borsa Italiana on Wednesday at €1.58 – a 24% increase on the €1.22 they closed with the previous evening.
"It comes three weeks after the Bianconeri’s share price plummeted following their 2-0 defeat to Atleti in the first leg of their Champions League last-16 tie."Apparently (according to Prof. Google), "Juventus", "Juve" and "Bianconeri" all refer to the same group of pig bladder pushers. Confusing. I thought aliases were the practice of criminals trying to hide their actions. Anyway, any sort of investment that can shoot up ~20% overnight scares the poop out of me. It could just as easily fall the same if one of the bladder-jockeys fails to punt the sports-orb in right direction, or the gamekeeper (if that's the right term) fails to catch the game-sphere when it's kicked into his trap-net. I definitely feel this is more likely an investment of emotion than logic. |
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Post by Fletchsmile on Mar 13, 2019 17:45:27 GMT 7
I think LT are investing with a long term focus for Juventus and its brands. But it's the markets and traders that gets emotional short term.
As the saying goes:
“In the short run, the market is a voting machine but in the long run, it is a weighing machine.”
I wouldn't invest in the shares personally and it's not even an area I would research much either. On the other hand, it's an area where collective investments come in useful.
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