AyG
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Post by AyG on Jun 26, 2019 13:26:37 GMT 7
I never had a "endowment policy" feel like I missed out, are they still available? For reasons that are unimportant, on the top of a pile of papers next to my desk is an endowment policy statement from Aviva (formally Norwich Union). It's dated 2010. It reads "Red Alert. There is a high risk that your policy will not pay out enough to cover the target amount of £78,000." There was a projected shortfall of around £30,000. (In the end I think it was more.) That was after 22 years of paying in every month. I was also a victim of the Equitable Life scandal, losing more than three quarters of my pension pot from one of my employers. After 10 years I'm still waiting to get back only a fraction of the money I invested in an Arch Cru fund (a criminal enterprise, though nobody ever ended up behind bars). And I was a victim of the Weavering Capital hedge fund fraud. I never got any money back, but at least the fraudster fund manager, Magnus Peterson, is currently detained at Her Majesty's pleasure. Do wish they'd bring back the death penalty for people like him, though. In fact, given my track record, I wouldn't listen to any of my advice on financial matters. On the plus side, each of these disasters has only represented a small proportion of my total wealth. It really pays to be diversified. And in future I'll be sticking to bread-and-butter investments - nothing fancy.
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Post by Fletchsmile on Jun 26, 2019 13:45:42 GMT 7
Which ETF were you looking for BTW?
and which list were you looking at?
I just checked in online trading
MVOL:LSE is there = USD Acc version of iShares World Min Vol
WMVG:LSE is there = GBP Hedged SXR0:SWX is there = EUR hedged, but only on the Swiss exchange for the EUR version, doesn't offer the German exchanges etc
Thanks - I see it now - MVOL:LSE. Couldn't find it yesterday - was probably searching under the name... It just struck me as well. When you mentioned their "list of 300 funds"...
The 300 funds they refer to are their unit trust range, I just noticed they "say over 300 funds" listed on there website. There are actually 697 unit trusts listed, which is why I didn't recognise the 300. A lot of these 697 are just different classes of the same fund, so a USD, EUR, SGD version etc, so 300 is probably a better idea of actual funds ignoring the different classes. It's not a particularly wide range as we've discussed before, but enough to build a portfolio on.
Because SCB's range of unit trusts is limited. That's why I often look at investment trusts and ETFs if buying thru SCB.
There are ball park about 500 investment trusts and thousands of ETFs. SCB gives you access to most of the investment trust and a lot of the ETFs. They cover most of the ones on the London Stock Exchange. As they are listed on the stock exchange just like shares they don't make a separate list of these.
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So on a general note and relevant to GWC. Basically if someone chooses Stan Chart Singapore for one of their options as to banking and investment arrangements, they have access to:
- approx 300 to 700 unit trusts depending how you measure them
and if they open a trading account:
- approx 400-500 investment trusts
- at least 1000 ETFs
- stock exchanges in around 12 countries
Combined these are definitely enough to build a portfolio.
- Plus can be linked in very easily to banking arrangements
This would be relevant to GWC if he is looking for options to place his money. Standard Chartered Bank (SCB) Singapore has a decent range of investments to choose from:
From low cost ETFs, a little more expensive UK investment trusts, and unit trusts costing a little more. The investment trusts and unit trusts giving opportunity for active managed funds which may return more but cost more. The unit trusts can also be bought and hedged into SGD which correlated quite well to THB to reduce FX risk for someone living in Thailand.
Singapore based unit trusts aren't the best value for money. But significantly better than FP and the like. All of these would be significantly cheaper than what GWC's policies charge. In addition with the amounts he is talking he would have Priority Banking status and access to a personal Relationship Manager, as someone to go to with whatever questions he has, help build a portfolio etc. I prefer to build my own portfolio, but am option to suggestions and find my RM useful.
SCB Sinagpore are of course regulated by Monetary Authority of Singapore, and are a decent institution - although like any financial institution aren't perfect and have their faults Much safer and more transparent, and better regulated than where he is now
I use SCB and find them useful to build a portfolio and for banking arrangements outside Thailand and outside the UK. Although they still give access to UK investment trusts, shares, ETFs etc, and I have GBP accounts, overdrafts etc with them, as well as other currencies. Not THB though. I also sleep at night.
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Post by Fletchsmile on Jun 26, 2019 14:45:34 GMT 7
GWC
Just to clarify:
Are your investments with FP and Investors Trust both thru the same Financial advisor?
For your investment with Investor Trust, do you have access to that now if you wanted to terminate it? I understand the issues around FP and the suspension etc so you can't access that one yet?
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GWC
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Post by GWC on Jun 26, 2019 16:25:44 GMT 7
GWC Just to clarify: Are your investments with FP and Investors Trust both thru the same Financial advisor? For your investment with Investor Trust, do you have access to that now if you wanted to terminate it? I understand the issues around FP and the suspension etc so you can't access that one yet? Yes, I have access to Investors trust, FP has no financial advisor at this time.
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Post by Fletchsmile on Jun 26, 2019 16:49:30 GMT 7
GWC Just to clarify: Are your investments with FP and Investors Trust both thru the same Financial advisor? For your investment with Investor Trust, do you have access to that now if you wanted to terminate it? I understand the issues around FP and the suspension etc so you can't access that one yet? Yes, I have access to Investors trust, FP has no financial advisor at this time. So if we look at a worst case scenario:
- FP is a poor policy, with high fees, and suspended. You might get back some value, and I hope you do, but in a worst case scenario it could be gone
- That leaves the rest of your investments all tied up in Investor Trust.
In your shoes there is no way I would want all my investments tied up with a single provider.
We all make mistakes and bad investments. AyG mentioned a few. e.g. I was also an Equitable Life policy holder. I also used an IFA for an insurance based policy - though a small amount and less than 5% of my portfolio knowing the risks, but just testing the waters and in case something happened to me my wife had somewhere to turn - that also performed poorly, so I cancelled it and moved on.
Shit happens In all cases though I would never put all my eggs in one basket. No matter how good it seems. So if and when things don't go well, it can be unpleasant but there should be other investments doing fine. Based on what you've said, as I mentioned earlier (post #22), I'd be focusing on getting my cash back first. From both policies. I'd then be investing that cash over different arrangements and providers
Investor Trust doesn't sound a good arrangement. But even if it were I wouldn't want all of my investments tied up with them.
Makes sense to me to sell at least to two thirds of Investor Trust now and spread that money over a couple of more reputable providers. That would leave you with 2 reputable providers + Investor Trust
In reality, if me, based on what you've said I'd actually get my cash back and dispose of the whole lot in Investor trust (not just 2/3s that's a minimum). Then spread it over say 3 reputable providers.
If and when you get any more from FP, I'd also take that and spread it over those providers too if happy with them. Key being reputable safe providers.
I really wouldn't keep all my eggs in Investor Trust's basket though. Especially after FP issues, and one large loss.
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Post by rgs2001uk on Jun 26, 2019 20:35:28 GMT 7
I never had a "endowment policy" feel like I missed out, are they still available? For reasons that are unimportant, on the top of a pile of papers next to my desk is an endowment policy statement from Aviva (formally Norwich Union). It's dated 2010. It reads "Red Alert. There is a high risk that your policy will not pay out enough to cover the target amount of £78,000." There was a projected shortfall of around £30,000. (In the end I think it was more.) That was after 22 years of paying in every month. I was also a victim of the Equitable Life scandal, losing more than three quarters of my pension pot from one of my employers. After 10 years I'm still waiting to get back only a fraction of the money I invested in an Arch Cru fund (a criminal enterprise, though nobody ever ended up behind bars). And I was a victim of the Weavering Capital hedge fund fraud. I never got any money back, but at least the fraudster fund manager, Magnus Peterson, is currently detained at Her Majesty's pleasure. Do wish they'd bring back the death penalty for people like him, though. In fact, given my track record, I wouldn't listen to any of my advice on financial matters. On the plus side, each of these disasters has only represented a small proportion of my total wealth. It really pays to be diversified. And in future I'll be sticking to bread-and-butter investments - nothing fancy. Feel free to join me in the Dunces Corner, I too was a victim, sold my house and kept the endowment policy going, on maturity it wouldnt have met the mortgage. The above gave birth to a whole new industry of ambulance chasers in the UK, former Essex barrow boys were now financial advisors, and for a fee would recover what you were owed. I dont know the last time you were in the UK or last watched UK telly, the adverts leave a lot to be desired, its all financial services, coupled with the scam calls from India. These days I subscribe to the KISS it school of thought.
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Post by rgs2001uk on Jun 26, 2019 20:42:25 GMT 7
Yes, I have access to Investors trust, FP has no financial advisor at this time. So if we look at a worst case scenario:
- FP is a poor policy, with high fees, and suspended. You might get back some value, and I hope you do, but in a worst case scenario it could be gone
- That leaves the rest of your investments all tied up in Investor Trust.
In your shoes there is no way I would want all my investments tied up with a single provider.
We all make mistakes and bad investments. AyG mentioned a few. e.g. I was also an Equitable Life policy holder. I also used an IFA for an insurance based policy - though a small amount and less than 5% of my portfolio knowing the risks, but just testing the waters and in case something happened to me my wife had somewhere to turn - that also performed poorly, so I cancelled it and moved on.
Shit happens In all cases though I would never put all my eggs in one basket. No matter how good it seems. So if and when things don't go well, it can be unpleasant but there should be other investments doing fine. Based on what you've said, as I mentioned earlier (post #22), I'd be focusing on getting my cash back first. From both policies. I'd then be investing that cash over different arrangements and providers
Investor Trust doesn't sound a good arrangement. But even if it were I wouldn't want all of my investments tied up with them.
Makes sense to me to sell at least to two thirds of Investor Trust now and spread that money over a couple of more reputable providers. That would leave you with 2 reputable providers + Investor Trust
In reality, if me, based on what you've said I'd actually get my cash back and dispose of the whole lot in Investor trust (not just 2/3s that's a minimum). Then spread it over say 3 reputable providers.
If and when you get any more from FP, I'd also take that and spread it over those providers too if happy with them. Key being reputable safe providers.
I really wouldn't keep all my eggs in Investor Trust's basket though. Especially after FP issues, and one large loss.
This tells me all I need to know, www.aesinternational.com/reviews/international-investment-platform/investors-trust-reviewHidden indemnity commissions Uses salespeople to distribute rather than advisersTake the hit and offload asap.
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GWC
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Post by GWC on Jun 27, 2019 10:10:42 GMT 7
Yes, I have access to Investors trust, FP has no financial advisor at this time. I really wouldn't keep all my eggs in Investor Trust's basket though. Especially after FP issues, and one large loss.
I'm listening & thinking my next move will be to set up an account with Aberdeen or UOB, that probably won't be so easy in this day and age. Once the accounts are set up, do I then decide in which funds to place money?
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Post by rgs2001uk on Jun 27, 2019 10:52:27 GMT 7
I really wouldn't keep all my eggs in Investor Trust's basket though. Especially after FP issues, and one large loss.
I'm listening & thinking my next move will be to set up an account with Aberdeen or UOB, that probably won't be so easy in this day and age. Once the accounts are set up, do I then decide in which funds to place money? Lucky for you they are both right next to each other on St Sathorn Rd in Bkk, do one in the morning the other in the afternoon. Set up an initial meeting with them, you will get the usual know your customer paperwork to fill in, take your passport with you, check out their products online before making a visit, wil give you an idea of what they offer.
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Post by Fletchsmile on Jun 27, 2019 11:02:57 GMT 7
I really wouldn't keep all my eggs in Investor Trust's basket though. Especially after FP issues, and one large loss.
I'm listening & thinking my next move will be to set up an account with Aberdeen or UOB, that probably won't be so easy in this day and age. Once the accounts are set up, do I then decide in which funds to place money? You can choose the funds at the time of set up.
Where are you based? Bangkok or provinces?
If you liked UOB and Aberdeen, you could also buy thru a bank rather than direct, so they are managed under the same umbrella. There are no extra fees for that.
We hold some Aberdeen and UOB funds thru Tisco bank (formerly Standard Chartered). I wouldn't particularly recommend Tisco as they're difficult to deal with starting from scratch. Just to illustrate though
If starting from zero I'd take a look at Citibank. Reputable name. Usually decent systems, and often a variety of different asset managers, including UOB and Aberdeen, as well as fund management houses from outside Thailand.
On the amounts in question you'd also have a dedicated relationship manager as a go-to person for your accounts. I find this useful in Thailand as saves me personally dealing with as much bureaucracy. You still retain full control over your accounts though and choose the funds. Although you can ask them for suggestions.
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GWC
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Post by GWC on Jun 27, 2019 11:40:26 GMT 7
I'm listening & thinking my next move will be to set up an account with Aberdeen or UOB, that probably won't be so easy in this day and age. Once the accounts are set up, do I then decide in which funds to place money? Lucky for you they are both right next to each other on St Sathorn Rd in Bkk, do one in the morning the other in the afternoon. Set up an initial meeting with them, you will get the usual know your customer paperwork to fill in, take your passport with you, check out their products online before making a visit, wil give you an idea of what they offer. I am out in the provinces but easy enough to go to Bangkok to set up accounts, may be easier than trying to do on-line - if that is possible. Ant idea what "deposit" will be required for each? (Is there a way to multi-quote on this forum?)
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AyG
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Post by AyG on Jun 27, 2019 11:51:09 GMT 7
I really wouldn't keep all my eggs in Investor Trust's basket though. Especially after FP issues, and one large loss.
I'm listening & thinking my next move will be to set up an account with Aberdeen or UOB, that probably won't be so easy in this day and age. Once the accounts are set up, do I then decide in which funds to place money? Is there any particular reason for wanting to bring your wealth into Thailand? I see a number of negatives in doing so: - You're going to have to convert your USD in THB which will entail a loss - You're going to be paying far higher fees for funds than is necessary - You can get better fund performance elsewhere in most cases - You may have trouble taking the money out of the country subsequently - Thailand is a politically unstable country. Personally I only hold Thai equity funds and a fund which invests in Thai and Singapore property shares within Thailand. Everything else is offshore. You also need to consider whether you only want to invest in Thai mutual funds, or whether you'd be interested in other investment types such as ETFs and possibly investment trusts. (I'll post more when my investigation is more complete, but one ETF (and not a high risk one - its the minimum volatility one I mentioned previously), has outperformed all but 2 of my 27 offshore holdings over the last 5 years.)
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AyG
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Post by AyG on Jun 27, 2019 11:52:31 GMT 7
Lucky for you they are both right next to each other on St Sathorn Rd in Bkk, do one in the morning the other in the afternoon. Set up an initial meeting with them, you will get the usual know your customer paperwork to fill in, take your passport with you, check out their products online before making a visit, wil give you an idea of what they offer. I am out in the provinces but easy enough to go to Bangkok to set up accounts, may be easier than trying to do on-line - if that is possible. Ant idea what "deposit" will be required for each? (Is there a way to multi-quote on this forum?) Setting up on-line is often possible, but you'll need to send paper documentation too as part of the process. Deposits are usually minimal - around 1,000 baht. (Might be different much higher for Citibank. You'd have to check.)
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GavinK
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Post by GavinK on Jun 27, 2019 12:07:54 GMT 7
I really wouldn't keep all my eggs in Investor Trust's basket though. Especially after FP issues, and one large loss.
I'm listening & thinking my next move will be to set up an account with Aberdeen or UOB, that probably won't be so easy in this day and age. Once the accounts are set up, do I then decide in which funds to place money? You could go to both UOB and Aberdeen and open a money market investment at the same time to get the relationship started, depositing the minimum amount in each. Get registered for online transacting with each, link to an existing bank account (Mine are linked to a kasikornbank account) so future investments can be pulled by direct debit from it, and you’ll be then able to operate from anywhere.
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Post by Fletchsmile on Jun 27, 2019 12:30:21 GMT 7
I'm listening & thinking my next move will be to set up an account with Aberdeen or UOB, that probably won't be so easy in this day and age. Once the accounts are set up, do I then decide in which funds to place money? Is there any particular reason for wanting to bring your wealth into Thailand? I see a number of negatives in doing so: - You're going to have to convert your USD in THB which will entail a loss - You're going to be paying far higher fees for funds than is necessary - You can get better fund performance elsewhere in most cases - You may have trouble taking the money out of the country subsequently - Thailand is a politically unstable country. Personally I only hold Thai equity funds and a fund which invests in Thai and Singapore property shares within Thailand. Everything else is offshore. You also need to consider whether you only want to invest in Thai mutual funds, or whether you'd be interested in other investment types such as ETFs and possibly investment trusts. (I'll post more when my investigation is more complete, but one ETF (and not a high risk one - its the minimum volatility one I mentioned previously), has outperformed all but 2 of my 27 offshore holdings over the last 5 years.)
-If someone is living in Thailand they'll suffer exchange rates anyway, eventually when they bring money into Thailand. Sure, they can invest offshore in USD. But when they bring the money here to live off they'll still suffer FX rates. So that's largely irrelevant and a red herring. The only time having money offshore is an advantage from an FX point of view is if you actually travel to the country of the currency and spend the money there so don't have to change it. Otherwise you end up converting eventually anyway and still suffer that loss. GWC doesn't seem to travel to UK much, and doesn't have an address there, so unlikely to be any decent saving in GBP. Choosing a 3rd currency will still bring additional FX charges. In the long run it would actually likely work out cheaper to do a one off transfer to Thailand and pay one fee, than do regular transfers to Thailand and pay a fee every time, as fees are often capped at a max amount of say 35 pounds, though varies between banks. Otherwise may suffer 35 pounds every time
-"Far higher fees" is a subjective term and misleading. It's alll relative. "Far higher fees" are what GWC is suffering now. "Higher" or "slightly higher fees" would be a more accurate description for fees in Thailand vs offshore. The fees in Thailand are still significantly lower than what he is suffering in his current situation. Realistically he should be able to buy funds in Thailand with no initial charge. Occasionally there are some at 1% initial charge. So on acquisition similar to anywhere else. Note: if he were to buy ETFs or investment trusts offshore they are more expensive to acquire because of brokerage fees. (Even though ETFs and ITs are cheaper annually)
Annual management fees would realistically be somewhere between 0.7% to 1.5% per annum compared to say 0.1% to 1% offshore in cheapest locations depending on funds. That's not exactly "far higher" in my book in the context of current arrangements. It's only probably around 0.6% higher than offshore on average. Of course there are also offshore locations that cost more than Thailand, but 0.1% to 1% is a reasonable estimate for the cheaper ones.
- Thailand is a politically unstable country True, but having lived here for 20 years or so that makes little difference to the safety of investments here. I've never had an issue accessing my accounts for political reasons, nor do I know anyone who has. Quite different from say Indonesia. Vietnam is politically stable, but I wouldn't put large sums there. On rare occasions there have been some restrictions around what could be sent out of Thailand. I recall one period in 20 years plus, and that was over 10 years ago. No issue whatsoever though for accessing your money in Thailand while in Thailand. The flip side of course is that Thailand may also restrict money coming into the country. They have also done that once as I recall in 20 years. So might be prevented from bringing it in if needed in future. Tho again rare. No such restrictions currently apply.
There are quite a lot of advantages of bringing money into Thailand: - Convenience - Easy and can just visit the provider in person if any issues or help needed. This may be important for a less experienced investor or if issues come up
- No worries about offshore admin or tax - No worries about income tax or capital gains tax on investments if the right investments are chosen. Unlikely to be affected by Thai inheritance tax
- If GWC has a Thai partner, overseas investments can be a nightmare on his death. Particularly without an offshore will. On the other hand much easier for a Thai partner to deal with Thai institutions in a language they understand and a probate system they can easily get help with - Splitting money between overseas and Thailand to reduce risks of relying on just one broker or institution. Also removes systemic risk of any particular country. Think back to the Global Financial Crisis and the worry of systemic collapse of the western financial systems. Didn't happen and very low probability. But Thailand did an excellent job of protecting its inhabilitants and insulating itself form risks. I felt safe knowing I had money outside western institutions
etc
So there are a lot of reasons to bring money here. Particularly to make life simple for a less experienced investor.
That said:
- Investing from Thailand isn't the cheapest option and there are often cheaper and better/more choices offshore. That's a trade off for convenience and other benefits. Thailand does have the best Thai equity and Thai property funds, although these wouldn't be a majority of investments
- I don't bring all my money into Thailand either. I park some in Singapore and some in the UK. As AyG says this can give access to a wider range of choices which can have better performance and lower fees. So my "best investments" excluding Thai equity funds are in the UK or Singapore to buy UK products
Hence
There are a lot of pros and cons of both inside and outside Thailand. Having invested here for around 20 years, I'm quite comfortable holding money here, as I started early and built confidence over time and understand the place well.
I wouldn't personally have all my money here though. Then again, I also still have ties to the UK. Singapore is a useful and safe regional location too.
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