chiangmai
Crazy Mango Extraordinaire
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Post by chiangmai on Aug 22, 2019 17:49:51 GMT 7
Various points and comments:
Getting a Thai TIN is easy, as long as you have a visa that shows you are resident in the country for more than 180 days, it takes about 15 minutes to get one.
Almost certainly you can't get an account opened by phone, those days are mostly gone.
Have you considered currency risk, if so, are you comfortable where you think THB and GBP are headed and where they will be in say 5 years time?
There is talk that LTF's will be replaced by a new product type.
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Post by realisedurgency on Aug 22, 2019 18:32:00 GMT 7
Various points and comments: Getting a Thai TIN is easy, as long as you have a visa that shows you are resident in the country for more than 180 days, it takes about 15 minutes to get one. Almost certainly you can't get an account opened by phone, those days are mostly gone. Have you considered currency risk, if so, are you comfortable where you think THB and GBP are headed and where they will be in say 5 years time? There is talk that LTF's will be replaced by a new product type. I think I will be getting a Thai TIN in the next couple of months via work anyway but good to know it's easy to get yourself.
I've just been in touch with an old friend who is an Irish citizen working and resident in Switzerland. He has two accounts with DeGiro, one opened with his Irish address and bank account from when he was working in Ireland, the other with his Swiss address and Swiss bank account. He also has an account with Interactive Brokers. He opened all online.
I guess I would prefer to be more exposed to the faith of THB and EUR as opposed to THB and GBP. As long as I have got THB and EUR assets that do well I'm not too worried how they do versus each other, at least for now.
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Post by realisedurgency on Aug 22, 2019 22:44:47 GMT 7
Emailed DeGiro today and got the response below which rules them out.
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Post by rgs2001uk on Aug 23, 2019 21:14:21 GMT 7
I suppose the first question to ask is, why are you considering investing in the stock market? Second question, what do you hope to gain? To answer you bit about rebalancing, dont expect all markets to behave the same way all the time. Its all to do with a balanced portfolio, look at the whole, not the sum of the parts. Not mentioned, once you have placed your bets, will you be adding to them on a monthly basis? This is only my personal opinion, but I will make it crystal clear, you can use whatever language you want, investing etc etc, you are gambling, can you live with that? You say you have 70k to invest, would it cost you sleepless nights, if after investing, your portfolio was only worth lets say 50k? I dont know how secure your job is, but at your age, you should be looking at capital growth rather than regular income, eg a pensioners portfolio will differ from a young working guy such as yourselfs portfolio. I dont know if you work for a large MNC and what type of pension they offer, if available, I would consider investing in a company pension fund. From my point of view, I would slice the investment market into the following slices, USA, UK, Europe, Asia, and Emerging Markets, I wouldnt allocate equal sharings in each market, these days I no lonegr hold Asia or Emerg Markets. Myself, I tend to stick with the tried and tested, old established Invest Trusts with a proven track record, I do concede, past performance is no indicator, I suppose it boils down to, in whom do you place your trust?
The stock market is likely where I can get the best capital growth long term. I'm comfortable with the idea of having my 70k be worth 50k a year later. But there are numbers that would make me a little uneasy, seeing it cut in half to 35k or worse would make me nervous. I'm aware of market crash history and how markets do bounce back though.
I will be earning Thai baht, but not a great salary really and there is no pension fund available via work. I intend on using my Thai income to max out LTFs and RMFs. I will still have money to spare after that which I can use to add to my portfolio. This will require me taking a hit on currency conversions. I'm more likely to add to a portfolio on a quarterly basis as monthly the sums would be quite small.
After investing in LTFs and RMFs I will have roughly 300k baht to put elsewhere each year.
Good man, you got it, we are on the same page, dont sell yourself short, 300k is more than most will have to invest. |
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Post by rgs2001uk on Aug 23, 2019 21:19:27 GMT 7
A quick google search gives me this, www.goodbody.ie/I dont know anything about them, but what I would be looking for is an independant, old established stockbroker firm, I wouldnt touch things such as Barclays wealth, HSBC etc etc. I understand your relucatance to travel home and seek advice, but one word cannot be over emphasised, trust, no doubt you will be given the usual bs forms to fill in, know your customer, common reporting standards etc etc, but a sit down and an explanation of what you want, and what your stockbroker can deliver is well worth the airfare cost alone, been there done that. Not mentioned, and I see it more and more these days, do you have a TIN, tax identification number? I read about farangs bitching and moaning about opening thai bank accounts, try walking in off the street in the uk and try opening a bank account, almost impossible. Here is a fee comparison between brokers available in Ireland:
DeGiro haven't been around as long but have significantly cheaper fees. From trying to register online, I would need to register as an Irish resident and can't use my Thai address. But registering as an Irish resident would make me subject to higher WHT. I have an Irish tax number(PPS) but I don't have a Thai TIN yet.
Not keen to travel home for this especially. Also it depends on the difficulty of opening an account. Can that sit down be accomplished via phone?
I dont want to appear glib, fees aint everything, its all to do with the "customer experience", gawd I hate americanisms and trite language, I can pick up the phone, phone my stockbroker, give him my instructions, they are carried out, no need for certified copies of passport, no need for proof of address, nothing to be signed. I am more than willing to pay an extra 0.05% for the ease of transactions. |
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Post by rgs2001uk on Aug 23, 2019 21:23:04 GMT 7
Emailed DeGiro today and got the response below which rules them out. Welcome to the expat world, sorry I know nothing of your countrys tax laws, I am UK, I am classified as, "not ordinarly resident for tax purposes", May be worth your while getting in touch with your countrys relevant tax authorites to see if such an option is available. You like me are not a Thai resident, we are expats working overseas. |
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Post by realisedurgency on Aug 24, 2019 10:48:57 GMT 7
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Post by Fletchsmile on Aug 29, 2019 13:20:35 GMT 7
You need to distinguish between resident and domicile. That's also the case for the UK. So best not to mix-up the tems, "not ordinarily resident" is different from "Irish domiciled".
Basically a smpler way to think of it is:
1) Resident = now, this tax year
2) Ordinarily resident = think of it as "usually" (although not really an accurate term for tax, and there will be specific criteria. Things like 3 of the last 4 years you were resident though I haven't checked exactly for Ireland. It picks up people that are normally resident but just happen to be non-resident for short periods)
3) Domicile = think of it as being Irish (although again not exatly right it will cover most people, usually by birth)
So crudely you are really looking at:
1) are you resident this year? 2) are you ordinarily (=usually) resident? based on the criteria set, i.e barring a few short term defined absences
3) are you Irish (domiciled) ?
This then boils down to the 2 questions of: 1) resident or not 2) oridinarily resident or not (=usually) to capture shorter absences then whether you are
3) Irish or foreigner
So it really isn't correct to mix up "not ordinarily resident" and "domiciled". One is picking up where you are for tax purposes, one picks up whether you're Irish or a foreigner. Two quite different things.
What you will find as a few crude rules:
A) An Irish person will usually be subject to tax on Irish Income. Depending on whether resident/oridinarily resident or not that, they may be taxed on Irish only income or worldwide income. But as worldwide includes Ireland, the key is that the Irish person will almost always get captured for tax on Irish income.
B) A foreigner will usually be subject to tax in Ireland only on Irish income , i.e Ireland doesn't tax foreigners on their worldwide income
You're correct you'd be in category 5. Just mixing the terms residence and domicile is a no no for tax planning.
As i think you've identfied, category 5 means for you that:
I) as an Irish guy you will very likely get captured for Irish tax on Irish income (unless you've used a special tax free vehicle/ wrapper) regardless of where you are in the world
II) Because you have been away from Ireland for a long time, and are presumably not resident, nor ordinarily resident, they won't touch your worldwide income. (Unless you go back and become resident etc again)
So basically as you're a long term expat, using an Irish broker and buying Irish based investments likely isn't in your interests at the moment from a tax perspective. For worldwide income plan it carefully if you decide to go back to Ireland and becoe resident again
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Post by Fletchsmile on Aug 29, 2019 13:29:40 GMT 7
Just out of interest, I checked the Irish definition of ordinarily resident. As expected it does revolve around a sort of 3 out of 4 year timeframe, but as follows: 3 years in a row wins you ordinarily resident  and to lose it you need to have been non-resident 3 years in a row. So if you've become ordinarily resident, and in year 4 you become non-resident, they still get you as ordinarily resident because of the 3 preceding years. Odinarily resident is designed to stop people taking advantage by skipping a year here and there to escape taxes |
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Post by realisedurgency on Aug 29, 2019 17:49:56 GMT 7
Yes, I've been away from Ireland for about 10 years so don't qualify as being resident or ordinarily resident. From looking at what is required for opening an account at DeGiro and Interactive Brokers, the latter seems to be more aware of the nuance involved. DeGiro only seems to care about current tax residency and require it to be one of their listed countries. Interactive brokers ask you about both your citizenship and current tax residency. They require a Thai tax number if you put down Thailand as the country where you are currently tax resident. I'm still waiting for the Thai TIN from work. I'm told I will get it in the next couple of months. I'm in no super rush I guess.
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Post by Fletchsmile on Aug 29, 2019 18:28:28 GMT 7
Yes, I've been away from Ireland for about 10 years so don't qualify as being resident or ordinarily resident. From looking at what is required for opening an account at DeGiro and Interactive Brokers, the latter seems to be more aware of the nuance involved. DeGiro only seems to care about current tax residency and require it to be one of their listed countries. Interactive brokers ask you about both your citizenship and current tax residency. They require a Thai tax number if you put down Thailand as the country where you are currently tax resident. I'm still waiting for the Thai TIN from work. I'm told I will get it in the next couple of months. I'm in no super rush I guess. I know FireinTH on here uses Interactive brokers he may be able to give you a few pointers. |
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Post by rgs2001uk on Aug 29, 2019 19:51:21 GMT 7
Yes, I've been away from Ireland for about 10 years so don't qualify as being resident or ordinarily resident. From looking at what is required for opening an account at DeGiro and Interactive Brokers, the latter seems to be more aware of the nuance involved. DeGiro only seems to care about current tax residency and require it to be one of their listed countries. Interactive brokers ask you about both your citizenship and current tax residency. They require a Thai tax number if you put down Thailand as the country where you are currently tax resident. I'm still waiting for the Thai TIN from work. I'm told I will get it in the next couple of months. I'm in no super rush I guess. I assume you are in Bkk, go and get it yourself at your local tax centre. |
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AyG
Crazy Mango Extraordinaire
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Post by AyG on Sept 1, 2019 17:13:06 GMT 7
Interactive brokers ask you about both your citizenship and current tax residency. They require a Thai tax number if you put down Thailand as the country where you are currently tax resident. Not correct. I opened an account with them a couple of months or so ago, and I don't have a Thai tax number. There's an option along the lines of "this country issues numbers, but I am not required to have one". |
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Post by realisedurgency on Sept 1, 2019 19:26:04 GMT 7
These are the options: - I have a US taxpayer identification number and I will add it to the W8 tax form
- Thailand does issue TINs, however, account holder is exempt from this requirement under the laws of Thailand.
- I am not legally required to obtain a TIN from Thailand.
- Thailand does not issue TINs to its residents.
I assumed if you work here you are required to have a TIN and pay tax. |
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chiangmai
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Post by chiangmai on Sept 1, 2019 21:32:41 GMT 7
You must have a Thai tax ID to file a tax return, being in work is not the prerequisite, paying tax and filing a return is. I do not work but I do pay tax on my fixed rate savings which I claim back every year via a tax return, ergo, I need a TIN. Thailand Revenue will generally not issue you with a TIN unless you have a visa and entry stamps showing at least 180 days residency. And yes, if you work here (legally) you must have a TIN.
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and to lose it you need to have been non-resident 3 years in a row. So if you've become ordinarily resident, and in year 4 you become non-resident, they still get you as ordinarily resident because of the 3 preceding years. 
