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Post by rgs2001uk on Dec 14, 2015 21:03:32 GMT 7
I believe Joyce summed it up,
"What liberation is it to cast out the political tyranny of England and remain under the intellectual tyranny of Rome?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2015 0:23:38 GMT 7
Re your Irish American/black and tans drivel - explain to me why a high proportion of the black and tans were Irish and of Irish Roman Catholic stock? Blether you are writing like I brought it up. I didn't you did. You said America was bad because they supported the IRA. I was trying to explain to you how Americans felt about the IRA/THE IRISH WAR of Independence. The Black and Tans’ most notorious member must have been 19-year-old Thomas D. Huckerby from Somerset, England. Over a six-month period, he was responsible for the murder of five men – all of whom were unarmed and none of which were involved in the IRA. On Nov. 26, 1920, IRA members Pat and Harry Loughnane were arrested at their family farm by Auxiliary forces. The brothers’ bodies were found burned and mutilated nine days later. They had been tied to the back of a lorry and forced to run behind it until they collapsed and were dragged along the ground. Both of Pat’s wrists, legs and arms were broken. He had a fractured skull and wounds carved into his chest. Harry’s right arm was broken and almost severed from his body, he was also missing two fingers. When he was found all that remained of his face were his chin and lips. Authorities claimed that the brothers had escaped from custody and that the Auxies were not involved in their deaths. That same month, a priest and a pregnant woman were also killed by British forces. militaryhistorynow.com/2015/11/09/the-black-and-tan-war-nine-fascinating-facts-about-the-bloody-fight-for-irish-independence/The Black and Tans were not subject to strict discipline in their first months and as a result, their deaths at the hands of the IRA in 1920 were often repaid with arbitrary reprisals against the civilian population. In the summer of 1920, the Black and Tans burned and sacked many small towns and villages in Ireland, beginning with Tuam in County Galway in July 1920 and also including Trim, Balbriggan, Knockcroghery, Thurles and Templemore amongst many others. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_and_TansYou brought up the IRA and quid pro quo (I speak Latin - learned in Catholic school) I brought up the other side the Black and Tans to keep the discussion fair and balanced. The only thing I know about recruitment was most of them were out of work British WWI soldiers and recruited in England. Of the 9,762 Black and Tans recruited a disproportionate number were from London and the counties immediately around London. (See Fig II) The reason for this was that the original recruiting was only carried out in London and it was easier for men in that area to get to the recruiting office and join up. It was not until July 1920 that recruiting began in other centres and eventually recruitment was carried out from regular British Army Recruitment offices. One striking feature about the recruitment of Black and Tans, which seems to have been missed by many academic commentators is the disproportionate number of recruits from Aberdeen. By any measure the total of 393 recruits is totally out of proportion to any where else. Another striking feature of Black and Tan recruitment was that only 117 men were recruited in the whole of Wales or 30% of the number recruited in Aberdeen. 1 London 2146 2 Lancashire 591 3 Ireland 299 4 Kent 331 5 Aberdeen 264 6 Lanarkshire 275 7 Yorkshire 262 8 Middlesex 212 9 Surrey 210 10 Sussex 145 Temps not listed. www.warofindependence.info/?page_id=505Fing any ancient justifiction you like - the bottom line is that US citizens donated money to the IRA that caused carnage - and that your government gave sanctuary to murderers convicted in British courts.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2015 0:33:16 GMT 7
I believe Joyce summed it up, "What liberation is it to cast out the political tyranny of England and remain under the intellectual tyranny of Rome? Absolutely - the Irish regret to this day picking the fight with the wrong "enemy." Far more damage was done to that nation by the RC church than all supposed British travails put together. And then some. Jeez - cmk should visit some of the people I know personally who were jailed for IRA membership - and others who were held at gun point for the "cause." IRA members who to this day cannot get over what they did - And Roman Catholic non-combatants that suffered nervous break downs as their family homes were turned into emergency "safe houses," by the RA. Kids tied up for hours at a time - crying in fear as the RA hid from British soldiers. All for a cause romantacized by clueless American fools.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2015 0:40:32 GMT 7
One statistic that Ibet cmk does not have a single clue about and will stagger him. Being the kind of guy he is I trust him to admit he didn't know this - If there were a referendum among Northern Irish Catholics only - they would vote to stay in the UK - and it's not even close. www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/poll-finds-only-25-of-catholics-wants-united-ireland-now-34172038.html Poll finds only 25% of Catholics wants united Ireland now As the results were revealed on TV last night, an Irish government minister admitted the Republic could not cope with taking on financial responsibility for Northern Ireland right now. Share Asked if it was affordable, minister Jimmy Deenihan bluntly replied: "No, really." The survey commissioned for a BBC Nolan Live and RTÉ Prime Time Special also suggested that staying within the UK - either through direct rule or devolution - were more popular options than Irish unity among respondents on both sides of the border. Asked about Northern Ireland's constitutional status in the short to medium term, almost half of Protestants here (49%) stated a preference for devolution. Unsurprisingly, only 3% wanted a united Ireland, while 30% wanted direct rule. Among Catholics, 38% said devolution was their preference in the same time frame, followed by a united Ireland (27%) and direct rule (14%). ................................... Kinda beats the Black and Tan/Potato Famine schtick into the ground that one, doesn't it? Over to you cmk.
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Post by cmk on Dec 15, 2015 6:20:30 GMT 7
One statistic that Ibet cmk does not have a single clue about and will stagger him. Being the kind of guy he is I trust him to admit he didn't know this - If there were a referendum among Northern Irish Catholics only - they would vote to stay in the UK - and it's not even close. www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/poll-finds-only-25-of-catholics-wants-united-ireland-now-34172038.html Poll finds only 25% of Catholics wants united Ireland now As the results were revealed on TV last night, an Irish government minister admitted the Republic could not cope with taking on financial responsibility for Northern Ireland right now. Share Asked if it was affordable, minister Jimmy Deenihan bluntly replied: "No, really." The survey commissioned for a BBC Nolan Live and RTÉ Prime Time Special also suggested that staying within the UK - either through direct rule or devolution - were more popular options than Irish unity among respondents on both sides of the border. Asked about Northern Ireland's constitutional status in the short to medium term, almost half of Protestants here (49%) stated a preference for devolution. Unsurprisingly, only 3% wanted a united Ireland, while 30% wanted direct rule. Among Catholics, 38% said devolution was their preference in the same time frame, followed by a united Ireland (27%) and direct rule (14%). ................................... Kinda beats the Black and Tan/Potato Famine schtick into the ground that one, doesn't it? Over to you cmk. If the poll was taken in Ireland yes. Taken in Northern Ireland, no. I didn't just fall off the turnip truck. BTW Trump at 41% today www.politico.com/story/2015/12/poll-trump-new-high-216741I know you can't imagine the British responsible for murder and famine in Ireland but it is what it is.
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Post by cmk on Dec 15, 2015 6:38:25 GMT 7
Blether you are writing like I brought it up. I didn't you did. You said America was bad because they supported the IRA. I was trying to explain to you how Americans felt about the IRA/THE IRISH WAR of Independence. The Black and Tans’ most notorious member must have been 19-year-old Thomas D. Huckerby from Somerset, England. Over a six-month period, he was responsible for the murder of five men – all of whom were unarmed and none of which were involved in the IRA. On Nov. 26, 1920, IRA members Pat and Harry Loughnane were arrested at their family farm by Auxiliary forces. The brothers’ bodies were found burned and mutilated nine days later. They had been tied to the back of a lorry and forced to run behind it until they collapsed and were dragged along the ground. Both of Pat’s wrists, legs and arms were broken. He had a fractured skull and wounds carved into his chest. Harry’s right arm was broken and almost severed from his body, he was also missing two fingers. When he was found all that remained of his face were his chin and lips. Authorities claimed that the brothers had escaped from custody and that the Auxies were not involved in their deaths. That same month, a priest and a pregnant woman were also killed by British forces. militaryhistorynow.com/2015/11/09/the-black-and-tan-war-nine-fascinating-facts-about-the-bloody-fight-for-irish-independence/The Black and Tans were not subject to strict discipline in their first months and as a result, their deaths at the hands of the IRA in 1920 were often repaid with arbitrary reprisals against the civilian population. In the summer of 1920, the Black and Tans burned and sacked many small towns and villages in Ireland, beginning with Tuam in County Galway in July 1920 and also including Trim, Balbriggan, Knockcroghery, Thurles and Templemore amongst many others. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_and_TansYou brought up the IRA and quid pro quo (I speak Latin - learned in Catholic school) I brought up the other side the Black and Tans to keep the discussion fair and balanced. The only thing I know about recruitment was most of them were out of work British WWI soldiers and recruited in England. Of the 9,762 Black and Tans recruited a disproportionate number were from London and the counties immediately around London. (See Fig II) The reason for this was that the original recruiting was only carried out in London and it was easier for men in that area to get to the recruiting office and join up. It was not until July 1920 that recruiting began in other centres and eventually recruitment was carried out from regular British Army Recruitment offices. One striking feature about the recruitment of Black and Tans, which seems to have been missed by many academic commentators is the disproportionate number of recruits from Aberdeen. By any measure the total of 393 recruits is totally out of proportion to any where else. Another striking feature of Black and Tan recruitment was that only 117 men were recruited in the whole of Wales or 30% of the number recruited in Aberdeen. 1 London 2146 2 Lancashire 591 3 Ireland 299 4 Kent 331 5 Aberdeen 264 6 Lanarkshire 275 7 Yorkshire 262 8 Middlesex 212 9 Surrey 210 10 Sussex 145 Temps not listed. www.warofindependence.info/?page_id=505Fing any ancient justifiction you like - the bottom line is that US citizens donated money to the IRA that caused carnage - and that your government gave sanctuary to murderers convicted in British courts. Point and counter point. The bottom line is, in the USA the IRA are not the same as ISIL except in Dearborn MI. www.clarionproject.org/news/american-muslims-stone-christians-dearborn-michigan#The British brought on the IRA in the same way that the Americans brought on ISIL. I don't believe ancient is 1920's.
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Post by cmk on Dec 15, 2015 6:55:54 GMT 7
I believe Joyce summed it up, "What liberation is it to cast out the political tyranny of England and remain under the intellectual tyranny of Rome? Absolutely - the Irish regret to this day picking the fight with the wrong "enemy." Far more damage was done to that nation by the RC church than all supposed British travails put together. And then some. Jeez - cmk should visit some of the people I know personally who were jailed for IRA membership - and others who were held at gun point for the "cause." IRA members who to this day cannot get over what they did - And Roman Catholic non-combatants that suffered nervous break downs as their family homes were turned into emergency "safe houses," by the RA. Kids tied up for hours at a time - crying in fear as the RA hid from British soldiers. All for a cause romantacized by clueless American fools. You wrote, "Absolutely - the Irish regret to this day picking the fight with the wrong "enemy." Have the balls to conduct an election in Ireland that asks if the majority want the British to leave and see what happens. It makes no sense to us in the USA why one would only conduct polls in Northern Ireland. How many white people in Alabama voted for Obama?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2015 10:54:59 GMT 7
^^ getting silly now.
Ireland was partioned broadly along democratic lines.
A recent poll has it that only a third of Southerners want a United Ireland now - with an airy fairy sixty-six percent figure "sometime in their lifetime."
However - your contention is that it was okay for the US to fund and protect the IRA - and that the democratic process in Northern Ireland should be abrogated to maximize the chances of the result you want.
Absurd -
Oh, and as for your musrderous British comment - I'll not be taking lessons on murder from genocidal Americans. Indian nations much?
Or that doesn't count cos the white man was needing lebensraum?
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Post by cmk on Dec 15, 2015 11:58:29 GMT 7
^^ getting silly now. Ireland was partioned broadly along democratic lines. A recent poll has it that only a third of Southerners want a United Ireland now - with an airy fairy sixty-six percent figure "sometime in their lifetime." However - your contention is that it was okay for the US to fund and protect the IRA - and that the democratic process in Northern Ireland should be abrogated to maximize the chances of the result you want. Absurd - Oh, and as for your musrderous British comment - I'll not be taking lessons on murder from genocidal Americans. Indian nations much? Or that doesn't count cos the white man was needing lebensraum? I never said it was OK for the USA to fund the IRA. I was telling you why Americans fund the IRA and don't put it in the same category as ISIL. Didn't you write, "Find any ancient justification you like - the bottom line is" So now you want to debate the treatment of the Native Americans by the British in North America? You might want to read, "Slavery and Native Americans in British North America and the United States: 1600 to 1865" I think the best that can be said is the British have had a murderous past whether it be planned famines in Ireland or India or anyplace else best forgotten by a current population insulated by their own lack of educated internet warriors. While I have no problems admitting the moral flaws of Americans (funding the IRA was funding a terror group) you seem to have difficulty admitting the clay feet of many Brits who contributed to the death of millions. Europeans colonized North America and engaged in battles to control the territory with the native population and won. Indians lost - Europeans won. WW2 British won and Germans lost. 50 million died. To compare America and Britain's murder record is like the child to the adult. "The story of benign imperialism, whose overriding purpose was not to seize land, labour and commodities but to teach the natives English, table manners and double-entry book-keeping, is a myth that has been carefully propagated by the rightwing press. But it draws its power from a remarkable national ability to airbrush and disregard our past" www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/apr/23/british-empire-crimes-ignore-atrocities
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2015 13:13:12 GMT 7
Aww man - read your post again cmk -
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Post by cmk on Dec 15, 2015 13:42:12 GMT 7
Aww man - read your post again cmk - Still brilliant the second time around. I'm one of the few who understand Finnegans Wake.
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Post by cmk on Dec 15, 2015 22:32:01 GMT 7
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2015 12:11:50 GMT 7
Did you read the whole article?
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Post by cmk on Dec 16, 2015 14:26:32 GMT 7
Did you read the whole article? Yes.
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Post by cmk on Dec 16, 2015 14:28:11 GMT 7
I watched the debate this morning and since Trump said 3 times he will not run outside the Republican Party I guess the topic is a moot point.
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