rubl
Crazy Mango Extraordinaire
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Post by rubl on Jan 13, 2017 18:29:48 GMT 7
After successful trials for two years all non-EU citizens moving to the Netherlands will need to sign a declaration to uphold Dutch values. The article also provides a translation into English of that declaration which ends with "I declare that I have taken note of the above listed Dutch society values and that I will repect them. I declare that I want to make an active contribution to Dutch society and that I expect to be given the space and the cooperation of my fellow citizens to do this. Signed: ....." Article: "Minister aims to make participation contract compulsory in July The Dutch government is pressing ahead with plans to require all non-EU citizens who move to the Netherlands to sign a declaration pledging to uphold Dutch values and to play an active role in society. Social affairs minister Lodewijk Asscher plans to introduce the contract, which people will have to sign before they start an integration course, from July 1. Read more at DutchNews.nl: Minister aims to make participation contract compulsory in July www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2017/01/minister-aims-to-make-participation-contract-compulsory-in-july/"
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Post by Soutpeel on Jan 13, 2017 20:01:22 GMT 7
And what happens if they sign and then dont uphold their end of the bargin Jail time ? Deportation, tarred and feathered ? Put in stocks and get rotten tomatos thrown at them
Seems to me this is a completely hollow/useless document if there are no consequences for breach of contract
Obviously a scheme dreamed up by some leftie luvvie
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me
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Post by me on Jan 13, 2017 20:17:08 GMT 7
After successful trials for two years all non-EU citizens moving to the Netherlands will need to sign a declaration to uphold Dutch values. The article also provides a translation into English of that declaration which ends with "I declare that I have taken note of the above listed Dutch society values and that I will repect them. I declare that I want to make an active contribution to Dutch society and that I expect to be given the space and the cooperation of my fellow citizens to do this. Signed: ....." Article: "Minister aims to make participation contract compulsory in July The Dutch government is pressing ahead with plans to require all non-EU citizens who move to the Netherlands to sign a declaration pledging to uphold Dutch values and to play an active role in society. Social affairs minister Lodewijk Asscher plans to introduce the contract, which people will have to sign before they start an integration course, from July 1. Read more at DutchNews.nl: Minister aims to make participation contract compulsory in July www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2017/01/minister-aims-to-make-participation-contract-compulsory-in-july/" It could be a useful first step. The person could no longer stand up in court and say he did not know that other people had rights.
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rubl
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The wondering type
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Post by rubl on Jan 13, 2017 20:48:58 GMT 7
And what happens if they sign and then dont uphold their end of the bargin Jail time ? Deportation, tarred and feathered ? Put in stocks and get rotten tomatos thrown at them Seems to me this is a completely hollow/useless document if there are no consequences for breach of contract Obviously a scheme dreamed up by some leftie luvvie Well, let me tell you that at times things move slowly, but steadily in the Netherlands. This is a pragmatic approach. Even with "The participation declaration programme will form the first part of the main integration course and people who refuse to sign could be fined up to €1,250. " Of course as part of the official 'integration course" non_EU immigrants (and student as well I think) seem to need to follow the declaration is the culmination of the course, like a diploma. No details, but I guess people who don't sign fail the course and two or three failures you're out. Typically the Dutch uncle approach
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buhi
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Post by buhi on Jan 14, 2017 2:15:19 GMT 7
And what happens if they sign and then dont uphold their end of the bargin Jail time ? Deportation, tarred and feathered ? Put in stocks and get rotten tomatos thrown at them Seems to me this is a completely hollow/useless document if there are no consequences for breach of contract Obviously a scheme dreamed up by some leftie luvvie Well, let me tell you that at times things move slowly, but steadily in the Netherlands. This is a pragmatic approach. Even with "The participation declaration programme will form the first part of the main integration course and people who refuse to sign could be fined up to €1,250. " Of course as part of the official 'integration course" non_EU immigrants (and student as well I think) seem to need to follow the declaration is the culmination of the course, like a diploma. No details, but I guess people who don't sign fail the course and two or three failures you're out. Typically the Dutch uncle approach I admit I like the Dutch. Is that racist? Now to sidetrack, but with no intent to derail the thread A very long discussion with friend Boy last evening. To be honest he did not want to hear ,but I persisted. It was of democracy and how Thailand has never had it and avoids it by coups. Constitution after constitution, coup after coup. Britain has no constitution. Does the Netherlands? I admit I do not know. I feel strongly that legal precedence is essential and can only be administered by a judiciary that has law , not political belief as the foundation. Hence no referendums.That is the way to disaster. Representative democracy for all its faults is for me the best of many other choices. A representative democracy not bound by a constitution, but by rule of law. You do not have a referendum on serious issues. It plays to the mob We now know what the mob can do. Alas.
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buhi
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Post by buhi on Jan 14, 2017 2:23:58 GMT 7
Some research.
Unwritten constitutional law Some of the most basic fundamental laws in the Dutch constitutional system are not explicitly expressed in the written Constitution. These include the rule that the Dutch monarch cannot dissolve the House of Representatives more than once because of a conflict over a single political issue[citation needed] and that the Senate shall never block legislation for mere party politics,[citation needed] so that coalition governments (all Dutch governments since the 19th century) do not need a majority in the Senate.
The unwritten laws are most influential when a cabinet is formed; the procedure is not regulated by the Constitution but based on tradition and more recently on regulations established by the House of Representatives. At the eve of the elections the sitting cabinet offers its resignation to the monarch, who takes it into consideration; the cabinet is now "demissionary". After the elections the King consults his advisors. The chairman of the House of representatives then appoints an "informateur" who explores the possibilities of a coalition cabinet. Because of the Dutch multi-party system, no political party (in the modern sense) has ever obtained a majority by itself. On the basis of the information process the chairman then appoints a "formateur" who literally forms the government by negotiating a coalition agreement between the coalition parties and the division of the ministerial posts between the parties. He also meets with candidate ministers and often becomes Prime Minister himself. The King then dismisses the sitting cabinet and appoints the new one. If the procedure turns out to be problematic, the House can ask the king to play a role in the formation process.
In common law systems these rules would not be seen as laws but as mere legal conventions as they cannot be upheld by judges; within the Dutch civil law system, however, they are part of the more extended Dutch-German legal concept of the Recht, the total "legal" normative structure, be it written or unwritten, so that they have full normative force. Indeed, that force is much larger than with written constitutional rules;[citation needed] any breach of the unwritten rules would cause an immediate constitutional crisis.
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buhi
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Post by buhi on Jan 14, 2017 2:38:34 GMT 7
Another off shoot of my ramblings with Boy was language. I can speak some Thai, but am more proficient in French, both these languages use gender markings. English does not. My, I are gender neutral. Just another aspect of culture.
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Post by Soutpeel on Jan 14, 2017 8:25:30 GMT 7
And what happens if they sign and then dont uphold their end of the bargin Jail time ? Deportation, tarred and feathered ? Put in stocks and get rotten tomatos thrown at them Seems to me this is a completely hollow/useless document if there are no consequences for breach of contract Obviously a scheme dreamed up by some leftie luvvie Well, let me tell you that at times things move slowly, but steadily in the Netherlands. This is a pragmatic approach. Even with "The participation declaration programme will form the first part of the main integration course and people who refuse to sign could be fined up to €1,250. " Of course as part of the official 'integration course" non_EU immigrants (and student as well I think) seem to need to follow the declaration is the culmination of the course, like a diploma. No details, but I guess people who don't sign fail the course and two or three failures you're out. Typically the Dutch uncle approach Refusing to sign and being fined and signing, but not following the T&Cs of the declaration are two different things, i would be interested in what the consequences are in the case where one signs and doesnts follow the "contract" as mentioned previously if there are no consequences for "breach" then the declaration is not worth the paper its written... Telling some one "aw but you promised" and putting them in the naughty corner for 15 minutes is hardly a consequence
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rubl
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Post by rubl on Jan 14, 2017 8:36:18 GMT 7
Well, let me tell you that at times things move slowly, but steadily in the Netherlands. This is a pragmatic approach. Even with "The participation declaration programme will form the first part of the main integration course and people who refuse to sign could be fined up to €1,250. " Of course as part of the official 'integration course" non_EU immigrants (and student as well I think) seem to need to follow the declaration is the culmination of the course, like a diploma. No details, but I guess people who don't sign fail the course and two or three failures you're out. Typically the Dutch uncle approach Refusing to sign and being fined and signing, but not following the T&Cs of the declaration are two different things, i would be interested in what the consequences are in the case where one signs and doesnts follow the "contract" as mentioned previously if there are no consequences for "breach" then the declaration is not worth the paper its written... Telling some one "aw but you promised" and putting them in the naughty corner for 15 minutes is hardly a consequence Don't know details, but normally 'breaches' are deemed 'offences' with police, court, judges and even lawyers involved.
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Post by Soutpeel on Jan 14, 2017 9:34:43 GMT 7
Refusing to sign and being fined and signing, but not following the T&Cs of the declaration are two different things, i would be interested in what the consequences are in the case where one signs and doesnts follow the "contract" as mentioned previously if there are no consequences for "breach" then the declaration is not worth the paper its written... Telling some one "aw but you promised" and putting them in the naughty corner for 15 minutes is hardly a consequence Don't know details, but normally 'breaches' are deemed 'offences' with police, court, judges and even lawyers involved. But for this to be true this would have to be legally enforceable contract, which i would think under English contract law would be pushing the limit to declare this declaration an enforceable contracts, certain if the conditions which would constitute breach are not specified this cannot be an enforceable contract, Dutch law not sure how it works, but under Anglo/Dutch law al la South Africa, the view would be similar to English law
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rubl
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Post by rubl on Jan 14, 2017 11:44:20 GMT 7
Don't know details, but normally 'breaches' are deemed 'offences' with police, court, judges and even lawyers involved. But for this to be true this would have to be legally enforceable contract, which i would think under English contract law would be pushing the limit to declare this declaration an enforceable contracts, certain if the conditions which would constitute breach are not specified this cannot be an enforceable contract, Dutch law not sure how it works, but under Anglo/Dutch law al la South Africa, the view would be similar to English law It's probably more an extra reminder for the new citizen what it means to be granted a 'permit for temporary stay'. Actual breaches would be classed under 'anti-social' behaviour which falls under the law, or just plain criminal offence (depending on what was done). So less a legal contract breach but maybe more circumstantial evidence. Mind you, I'm not a legal expert
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smokie36
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Post by smokie36 on Jan 16, 2017 18:04:26 GMT 7
I promise to eat at least a pound of cheese every day.
Signed
Smokie
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rubl
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Post by rubl on Jan 16, 2017 21:57:04 GMT 7
I promise to eat at least a pound of cheese every day. Signed Smokie 100 gram is enough if you also take two raw herrings
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rubl
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Post by rubl on Feb 26, 2017 17:00:07 GMT 7
An update "MPs back participation declaration to uphold Dutch values MPs on Thursday voted in favour of requiring everyone who has to go through the compulsory integration process (inburgering) to sign a document declaring they will uphold Dutch values. The participatieverklaring – participation declaration – includes a commitment to ‘respect’ values, such as freedom of speech, and ‘make an active contribution to Dutch society’. The measure still has to be approved by the upper house of parliament. Once it has senate approval, social affairs minister Lodewijk Asscher plans to make signing the contract compulsory from July 1. People who refuse to sign can be fined up to €340 and, eventually, refused residency rights. Read more at DutchNews.nl: MPs back participation declaration to uphold Dutch values www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2017/02/mps-back-participation-declaration-to-uphold-dutch-values/
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