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Post by Soutpeel on Nov 24, 2016 16:39:55 GMT 7
Agree with the insurance thing,too- and I'm a long way of retirement! My flatmate suffered from ruptured appendix back in Thailand and he had no insurance; it ended up costing him a pretty penny and the deducted the bill from his TEFL salary. If you move overseas I would have thought and hoped that taking care of healthcare would be at the top of our list regardless of age- should be anyway. My insurance is average in coverage and cost less than 600 quid for the year- a bargain IMO for peace of mind rather than anything else. Not to sound too preachy, but i have worked internationally for the best part of 27 years, and would never dream of working somewhere or for someone if i wasnt covered on the medical front, be it insurance, or" free" access to medical treatment Over the years have known guys who did have a good few bob in the bank but decided they were bullet proof and never bother with insurance and bleated the "self insure" BS, i have know 2 guys who ended up just about bankrupt because they got sick and blew through the cash, houses etc they had to pay for medical bills End up in ICU even in Thailand for any length of time and you will be dropping USD 25k + before you know it Collegue a few years back, problem with his ticker ( had insurance) thb 1.5 million by the end of it... |
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Post by Fletchsmile on Nov 25, 2016 10:53:45 GMT 7
Agree with the insurance thing,too- and I'm a long way of retirement! My flatmate suffered from ruptured appendix back in Thailand and he had no insurance; it ended up costing him a pretty penny and the deducted the bill from his TEFL salary. If you move overseas I would have thought and hoped that taking care of healthcare would be at the top of our list regardless of age- should be anyway. My insurance is average in coverage and cost less than 600 quid for the year- a bargain IMO for peace of mind rather than anything else. Not to sound too preachy, but i have worked internationally for the best part of 27 years, and would never dream of working somewhere or for someone if i wasnt covered on the medical front, be it insurance, or" free" access to medical treatment Over the years have known guys who did have a good few bob in the bank but decided they were bullet proof and never bother with insurance and bleated the "self insure" BS, i have know 2 guys who ended up just about bankrupt because they got sick and blew through the cash, houses etc they had to pay for medical bills End up in ICU even in Thailand for any length of time and you will be dropping USD 25k + before you know it Collegue a few years back, problem with his ticker ( had insurance) thb 1.5 million by the end of it... One of my benchmarks was a month in HDU (one step down from ICU) for my dad at Bumrungrad. Bill was just under THB 2mio. He was covered by travel insurance tho. So a couple of million is is a reasonable idea of a budget for something serious. I think everyone has their own cut-off levels of what they are comfortable with though. Someone could much easier go for a cheaper hospital if need be. I don't have insurance at the moment. Weighing up the stats though I don't think the cost is worth it for me and our family. That said if something serious did happen we should have the money to cover it. Not pleasant to take that hit, but on the other hand for every year that goes buy not buying insurance is counting towards that. We're talking a couple of hundred thousand baht ball park per annum for the coverage I would want. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2016 10:59:52 GMT 7
Not to sound too preachy, but i have worked internationally for the best part of 27 years, and would never dream of working somewhere or for someone if i wasnt covered on the medical front, be it insurance, or" free" access to medical treatment Over the years have known guys who did have a good few bob in the bank but decided they were bullet proof and never bother with insurance and bleated the "self insure" BS, i have know 2 guys who ended up just about bankrupt because they got sick and blew through the cash, houses etc they had to pay for medical bills End up in ICU even in Thailand for any length of time and you will be dropping USD 25k + before you know it Collegue a few years back, problem with his ticker ( had insurance) thb 1.5 million by the end of it... One of my benchmarks was a month in HDU (one step down from ICU) for my dad at Bumrungrad. Bill was just under THB 2mio. He was covered by travel insurance tho. So a couple of million is is a reasonable idea of a budget for something serious. I think everyone has their own cut-off levels of what they are comfortable with though. Someone could much easier go for a cheaper hospital if need be. I don't have insurance at the moment. Weighing up the stats though I don't think the cost is worth it for me and our family. That said if something serious did happen we should have the money to cover it. Not pleasant to take that hit, but on the other hand for every year that goes buy not buying insurance is counting towards that. We're talking a couple of hundred thousand baht ball park per annum for the coverage I would want. How much would you be paying in National Insurance in the UK? 200,000 is cheap. |
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Post by Fletchsmile on Nov 25, 2016 11:03:46 GMT 7
The problem with the insurance mentioned in the article is the level of coverage. Minimum USD 1k for oupatient. Minimum 10k for inpatient. That's around THB 35k and THB 350k.
The level doesn't really cover serious stuff. So comes across as if you can afford the visa you don't need that level of minimum coverage
If someone has put down THB 3mn. Why would they want to have to buy insurance coverage for THB 350k? That should be easily affordable to someone with THB 3mn set aside. Noting also it doesn't have to be there for the full 5/10 years. Insurance is there for the big shocks that you can't afford or would cause you severe hardship
So having to buy a policy for that THB 350k seems a waste of money.
Doesn't remove the question of should they have insurance for a few million baht? But having 350k worth seems neither here nor there. If you can afford the visa you don't need it. If anything serious happens it probably won't be enough.
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buhi
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Post by buhi on Nov 25, 2016 11:17:34 GMT 7
To not have medical insurance in Thailand is madness. Even minimal accident insurance. I have my card on me at all times, do not wish to bleed to death on the roadside.
Can't happen , you may say.
I once had a motorcycle accident. Not badly hurt, bruised and bleeding. Police came, asked if I had damaged or injured anyone. Nope. Off they went, I left on the curb.
Some kind students came to my aid.
This was long ago, I had no insurance. I then realised I must have it, it could have been much worse, I had been lucky.
Later I did have an accident, run over by a bus, the bus I was stepping off of. Driver stopped, called emergency , I was taken to the worst A and E I could imagine. A nightmare. I flashed my BUPA card, get me to a real hospital, now.
The bus driver was guilty, admitted it, but it took six months to squeeze some compensation for medical expenses from BMT, long after BUPA had settled the very costly hospital bill.
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Post by Fletchsmile on Nov 25, 2016 11:29:35 GMT 7
One of my benchmarks was a month in HDU (one step down from ICU) for my dad at Bumrungrad. Bill was just under THB 2mio. He was covered by travel insurance tho. So a couple of million is is a reasonable idea of a budget for something serious. I think everyone has their own cut-off levels of what they are comfortable with though. Someone could much easier go for a cheaper hospital if need be. I don't have insurance at the moment. Weighing up the stats though I don't think the cost is worth it for me and our family. That said if something serious did happen we should have the money to cover it. Not pleasant to take that hit, but on the other hand for every year that goes buy not buying insurance is counting towards that. We're talking a couple of hundred thousand baht ball park per annum for the coverage I would want. How much would you be paying in National Insurance in the UK? 200,000 is cheap. I pay voluntary contributions for UK NI at GBP 2.80 per week. It's not really a valid comparison though for 3 key reasons: - NI covers a lot of things not just health - If in the UK I probably wouldn't bother with private medical insurance and use the NHS for most things. - If working, NIC would be compulsory so is something of a sunk cost. So no marginal cost decision In Thailand you could rely on the state, but I would prefer not to, and go private. So I'm paying. The question is insurance or not. Very crude and simple summary of why I think 200k is not worth it. Statistically it isn't worth it if we can bear the loss -Cost of something serious in a top class private Thai hospital say THB 2mn -Cost of insurance THB say 200k p.a. -Chances are that in the next 10 years we won't have something as serious as THB 2mn. -Prefer to keep that money on one side invested -If really really serious long term there's a good chance we could downgrade the treatment. i.e wouldn't be Bumrungrad -Have already done it for several years on and off in the past Basically insurance companies are covering your risks. They calculate the stats and charge a fee on top to make money out of the portfolio of people insured. We pay for that The cost of what they pay out long term is less than the money the receive. So if you can afford the tail risks of self insurance. Statistically if you self-insure, what you pay out long term will be less than your costs. The massive IF of why it's needed for many people is can they afford the tail risks/ one-off low probability high cost events/ are they willing to accept the risk? Many people don't think it thru properly or don't do the numbers or don't put money aside. They would be better off with insurance. There are educated financially aware people prepared to bear the risk but I think that's the minority as theblethery and Soutpeel imply. |
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Post by Fletchsmile on Nov 25, 2016 11:42:12 GMT 7
To not have medical insurance in Thailand is madness. Even minimal accident insurance. I have my card on me at all times, do not wish to bleed to death on the roadside. Can't happen , you may say. I once had a motorcycle accident. Not badly hurt, bruised and bleeding. Police came, asked if I had damaged or injured anyone. Nope. Off they went, I left on the curb. Some kind students came to my aid. This was long ago, I had no insurance. I then realised I must have it, it could have been much worse, I had been lucky. Later I did have an accident, run over by a bus, the bus I was stepping off of. Driver stopped, called emergency , I was taken to the worst A and E I could imagine. A nightmare. I flashed my BUPA card, get me to a real hospital, now. The bus driver was guilty, admitted it, but it took six months to squeeze some compensation for medical expenses from BMT, long after BUPA had settled the very costly hospital bill. It's a fair point. Often they will take you to the nearest A&E in the absence of any other info. Once there though a credit card or family member with financial means are just as good for asking to be moved. I've had friends do that. I recall for the incident for my dad in HDU at Bumrungrad. When he was looking to check in they quickly assessed the bill could be 1 million up. He was in no fit state to make such decisions. My mum panicked saying she didn't have that sort of money (thinking in GBP). I said firstly don't worry it's not it's THB  and secondly I have it if necessary. Gave them a credit card and he was admitted. Later we checked the insurance as to whether he was covered or not. If linked to an existing condition it wasn't, if something else it was. We had to wait for a while to assess whether it was linked in any way to his previous cancers, which luckily it wasn't The issue of medical history affecting premiums is also another factor to take into account. Probably the most important thing, as you highlight is to have thought thru what you will do Sounds like you've made the right call for you and yours. Living without worrying about it is important, as is peace of mind and happiness |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2016 11:47:06 GMT 7
Yes it is a managed risk, but you wouldn't see me without family insurance in a foreign country ( we were a family of four in Germany ). Especially in a country as accident prone as Thailand.
Worst story I heard in CM was a young lady who was in a motorcycle accident, in a coma for five months - wealthy family - final bill? 6.5 million baht.
By the way, she died.
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Post by Fletchsmile on Nov 25, 2016 12:36:44 GMT 7
Yes it is a managed risk, but you wouldn't see me without family insurance in a foreign country ( we were a family of four in Germany ). Especially in a country as accident prone as Thailand. Worst story I heard in CM was a young lady who was in a motorcycle accident, in a coma for five months - wealthy family - final bill? 6.5 million baht. By the way, she died. A few sweeping generalisations but generally: - Medical insurance in the UK is cheaper/better value for money as the insurance market is more developed. You see this in the margins insurers make in emerging markets - Medical costs are higher in UK if private -Medical insurance in Thailand is less good value for money relative to UK -Medical costs are cheaper in Thailand So if going private like for like the argument for insurance is more compelling in the UK. (but then again there's the NHS) The problem with the likes of BUPA when buying a policy from Thailand is that they often cap the maximum payout out THB 5mn. In many cases it's much less depending on the policy. Also referring back to the original article the type of insurance they're encouraging you to buy in Thailand probably isn't good value for money and the minimum amount they're encouraging to cover is too low. THB 350k goes nowhere if something serious. Even in a cheap poor quality hospital. Worth also bearing in mind that insurance bought in the UK while cheaper and suitable for living in the UK may not be valid for a full year of living in Thailand. Need to check the small print. Good subject to revisit from time to time though. As circumstances and outlook on life change |
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Post by Soutpeel on Nov 25, 2016 14:41:19 GMT 7
Yes it is a managed risk, but you wouldn't see me without family insurance in a foreign country ( we were a family of four in Germany ). Especially in a country as accident prone as Thailand. Worst story I heard in CM was a young lady who was in a motorcycle accident, in a coma for five months - wealthy family - final bill? 6.5 million baht. By the way, she died. A few sweeping generalisations but generally: - Medical insurance in the UK is cheaper/better value for money as the insurance market is more developed. You see this in the margins insurers make in emerging markets - Medical costs are higher in UK if private -Medical insurance in Thailand is less good value for money relative to UK -Medical costs are cheaper in Thailand So if going private like for like the argument for insurance is more compelling in the UK. (but then again there's the NHS) The problem with the likes of BUPA when buying a policy from Thailand is that they often cap the maximum payout out THB 5mn. In many cases it's much less depending on the policy. Also referring back to the original article the type of insurance they're encouraging you to buy in Thailand probably isn't good value for money and the minimum amount they're encouraging to cover is too low. THB 350k goes nowhere if something serious. Even in a cheap poor quality hospital. Worth also bearing in mind that insurance bought in the UK while cheaper and suitable for living in the UK may not be valid for a full year of living in Thailand. Need to check the small print. Good subject to revisit from time to time though. As circumstances and outlook on life change My insurance is out of the UK and covers me upto GBP 1.0 million p.a. and is world wide coverage except the US and includes SOS repatriation if required, the cost is about 1800 quid a year |
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Post by AyG on Nov 25, 2016 14:43:45 GMT 7
Do you think (cheaper) "accident only" will be acceptable?
Can anyone see any logic in the insurance amounts being specified in USD rather than THB? Currency fluctuations might invalidated previously purchased Thai insurance.
And (since I currently can't be bothered to do the research) does anyone know how much the minimum insurance is likely to cost?
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buhi
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Post by buhi on Nov 25, 2016 14:48:54 GMT 7
A very good subject.
I was an humble teacher and know ziltch about insurance , hedge funds or whatever.
As a long term (resident) in Thailand I have often changed my employer. Each has given health insurance as part of my contract. The big BUT being that each has a different Insurance company with no cross over. Finish contract, the cover terminates with it.
I was never a spring chicken in Thailand, the older you are, the higher the risk you are to an insurance company.
Fletch , I know you know, just pointing out to maybe our younger members.
Then the premiums rise and indeed it becomes difficult to get any company to give a modicum of cover.
Over 60,. forget it.
My simple advice to the younger long term expats is to take out a policy now and keep it, continue it. Once you have a policy, a good one, it is not cancelled by age. I could not take out my policy now, but the terms clearly state it can not be cancelled if I renew each year. The premium does not increase much, if you make no claims.
Basic hospital costs, second tier private, in Bangkok are easily affordable. Even a couple of days as an in patient will not break the bank. Just expensive hotel price.
The get out clauses for the big deal, sure, but better to have a chance of cover , than none.
I do not expect to live for eternity, take the known risk of being in a life threatening situation. Well to me it is not life threatening, as I am happy to die, just give me some pain killers, or I will get them myself.
Third tier hospitals, even cheaper and if you are really ill, you will not care much about 5 star luxury.
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buhi
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Post by buhi on Nov 25, 2016 14:54:41 GMT 7
Do you think (cheaper) "accident only" will be acceptable? Can anyone see any logic in the insurance amounts being specified in USD rather than THB? Currency fluctuations might invalidated previously purchased Thai insurance. And (since I currently can't be bothered to do the research) does anyone know how much the minimum insurance is likely to cost? Well that will depend on your age and at 50, it would be a lot for basic, my guess. Out patient insurance should not be included as this is mostly affordable. I know there are exceptions, the exceptions that no insurance company woud pick up the tab for any way. |
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buhi
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Post by buhi on Nov 25, 2016 15:07:17 GMT 7
There are two different discussions here. Those of us, Sir Polee, myself, who intend to pop our clogs here in Thailand and those who will return to die in their home country.
If Fletch were to become incapacitated in Thailand, thus unable to work, to self insure, he would return to England I presume.
The option he puts forward is not for those who have "gone native". My simple suggestions are for the long term permanent expats, die where you are, expats.Retired expats.
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Post by pathumseb on Nov 25, 2016 15:32:09 GMT 7
Tis' bloody grim mulling over ones mortality- but the older I get the more I become concerned about retirement. Ideally, when that time comes I will have half a million GBP in the bank-but like Buhi I have no idea about investments and all that. If I got terminal or so sick my lifestyle was severely impacted I think I would rather end it on my own terms with some degree of dignity. Morose mulling for a Friday.
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and secondly I have it if necessary. Gave them a credit card and he was admitted. Later we checked the insurance as to whether he was covered or not. If linked to an existing condition it wasn't, if something else it was. We had to wait for a while to assess whether it was linked in any way to his previous cancers, which luckily it wasn't
