rubl
Crazy Mango Extraordinaire
The wondering type
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Post by rubl on Nov 21, 2019 12:09:20 GMT 7
Not that I doubt you, I only would like to know more, read more about this debasement. A quick search doesn't give my anything. Obviously my fault. Could you give me some leads I could use to do some more investigation? BTW the value of a Euro coin has nothing to do with the value of the materials its made of, not even with how much it costs to press those coins. Oh, and when did Europe have a common currency? Not in Roman times as the West had already fragmented when the Papal States became 'independent' around 750 AD. Since then we didn't really have a common currency in Europe till 1999 with the introduction of the EURO. Latin Monetary Union, 1850 something till 1927. I'm sure I have mentioned it on here previously and did not get shouted down. "With the tacit agreement of Napoleon III of France, Giacomo Antonelli, the administrator of the Papal Treasury, embarked from 1866 on an ambitious increase in silver coinage without the prescribed amount of precious metal, equivalent to Belgium's total.[9][4] The papal coins quickly became debased and excessively circulated in other union states,[10] to the profit of the Holy See, but Swiss and French banks rejected papal coins and the Papal States were ejected from the Union in 1870, owing 20 million lire.[4]" en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_Monetary_UnionMind you, there seems to be conflicting data on this. [4] Pollard, John F. (2005). Money and the Rise of the Modern Papacy: Financing the Vatican, 1850–1950. New York: Cambridge University Press. p. 39. ISBN 978-0-521-81204-7. [10]Not borne out by references in coin catalogues, e.g. Krause & Mishler, Standard Catalog of World Coins, 19th century, which shows LMU standard finenesses for Papal States silver and gold coinage with no debasement What we do have though is the history of Giacomo Antonelli "Giacomo Antonelli (2 April 1806 – 6 November 1876) was an Italian cardinal deacon. He was the Cardinal Secretary of State from 1848 until his death; ... At Antonelli's death the papal finances were found to be in disorder, with a deficit of 45,000,000 lire.[citation needed] Antonelli's personal fortune, accumulated during office, was considerable, and was bequeathed almost entirely to members of his family. To the Church he left little and to the pope only a souvenir.[citation needed]" en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giacomo_AntonelliBTW some searching gives me "When, for example, Switzerland reduced the purity of her small silver coins to 80% on 31 January 1860, arbitrageurs used the new coins to purchase French and Belgian coins of higher purity and remove them from circulation for melting. France consequently banned small Swiss silver from circulation on 14 April 1864 and reduced the fineness of her own small silver coins to 83.5% on 24 May 1864. Italy’s neighbors suffered a flood of Italian minor silver coins when Italy reduced the fineness of her small silver coins to 83.5% starting 24 August 1862. " courses.cit.cornell.edu/wbb1/papers/Bae%20Bailey%20LMU-2003.0707.pdf"The Papal State applied to join the LMU in 1866, but, while negotiating, it over-issued coinage with reduced silver content by ten to one, ultimately declining to join and to take back its depreciated currency which had migrated to France. The Papal State was ultimately pushed out of the LMU system." www.ifo.de/DocDL/dice-report-2018-3-einaudi-oct.pdf |
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rott
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Post by rott on Nov 21, 2019 14:30:31 GMT 7
In 1870 according to Wiki.
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rott
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Post by rott on Nov 21, 2019 14:32:32 GMT 7
I presume it was a common currency not a single currency or was it?
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rubl
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Post by rubl on Nov 21, 2019 15:42:38 GMT 7
I presume it was a common currency not a single currency or was it? Actually it seems it was based on a common gold and silver CONTENTS standard. Countries minting as part of the LMU would still use their own currency, like Franc, Lira, etc. One of the problems was the bimetalic standard. That only works if the silver and gold content per coin unit have identical value. If the price of silver falls (which happened in the 1860sh) you would get a rush to exchange silver coins for gold ones. "They agreed to a combined gold and silver bimetalism standard with a fixed gold-to-silver ratio of 15.5 to 1. A single LMU Franc represented 4.5 grams of fine silver or .290322 grams of fine gold." findbullionprices.com/blog/gold-coins-latin-monetary-union-lmu/ |
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rott
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Post by rott on Nov 21, 2019 16:30:14 GMT 7
I presume it was a common currency not a single currency or was it? Actually it seems it was based on a common gold and silver CONTENTS standard. Countries minting as part of the LMU would still use their own currency, like Franc, Lira, etc. One of the problems was the bimetalic standard. That only works if the silver and gold content per coin unit have identical value. If the price of silver falls (which happened in the 1860sh) you would get a rush to exchange silver coins for gold ones. "They agreed to a combined gold and silver bimetalism standard with a fixed gold-to-silver ratio of 15.5 to 1. A single LMU Franc represented 4.5 grams of fine silver or .290322 grams of fine gold." findbullionprices.com/blog/gold-coins-latin-monetary-union-lmu/Similar then to the hard ECU that John Major (I think) suggested. I thought it was a good idea, everybody else shouted it down. |
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rubl
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Post by rubl on Nov 21, 2019 19:15:49 GMT 7
Actually it seems it was based on a common gold and silver CONTENTS standard. Countries minting as part of the LMU would still use their own currency, like Franc, Lira, etc. One of the problems was the bimetalic standard. That only works if the silver and gold content per coin unit have identical value. If the price of silver falls (which happened in the 1860sh) you would get a rush to exchange silver coins for gold ones. "They agreed to a combined gold and silver bimetalism standard with a fixed gold-to-silver ratio of 15.5 to 1. A single LMU Franc represented 4.5 grams of fine silver or .290322 grams of fine gold." findbullionprices.com/blog/gold-coins-latin-monetary-union-lmu/Similar then to the hard ECU that John Major (I think) suggested. I thought it was a good idea, everybody else shouted it down. First proposed 1090/1991, renewed in 1993. "BRITAIN is planning an initiative aimed at giving the European Community a way to move forward from the virtual breakdown of its Exchange Rate Mechanism (ERM). Senior government sources say Prime Minister John Major will propose to his Cabinet next month that instead of creating a single currency replacing all others, European Community governments should launch a pan-European currency to run parallel with existing monetary systems. If Mr. Major gets Cabinet approval for his idea, Britain will make a formal proposal to a special one-day meeting of EC leaders scheduled for October." www.csmonitor.com/1993/0811/11092.htmlNote the "the hard Ecu's value would be guaranteed to keep pace with the strongest European currency" That could have been ANY currency and could also change if a currency gained in strength to the detriment of other currencies. and the "John Townend, chairman of the party's parliamentary finance committee, said those who were opposed to a single currency "should not do anything to help it on its way." He calls for "a period of masterly inactivity."" |
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Post by rgs2001uk on Nov 21, 2019 20:09:57 GMT 7
Well uncle rubl, i hope you enjoyed your day and your spiritual batteries have been recharged.
I must admit I was disappointeted the papal barge never made it up the mighty klong saen saep to bang kapi, a welcoming committee was arranged at the Mall, Bang Kapi Latter Day Baptists (Bootle affiliated), maybe next time.
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Post by rgs2001uk on Nov 21, 2019 21:12:01 GMT 7
Actually it seems it was based on a common gold and silver CONTENTS standard. Countries minting as part of the LMU would still use their own currency, like Franc, Lira, etc. One of the problems was the bimetalic standard. That only works if the silver and gold content per coin unit have identical value. If the price of silver falls (which happened in the 1860sh) you would get a rush to exchange silver coins for gold ones. "They agreed to a combined gold and silver bimetalism standard with a fixed gold-to-silver ratio of 15.5 to 1. A single LMU Franc represented 4.5 grams of fine silver or .290322 grams of fine gold." findbullionprices.com/blog/gold-coins-latin-monetary-union-lmu/Similar then to the hard ECU that John Major (I think) suggested. I thought it was a good idea, everybody else shouted it down.  . en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Wednesday |
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rott
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Post by rott on Nov 22, 2019 9:50:40 GMT 7
Nobody ever likes my ideas.  Eff it. I am off to the Five Star bar for morning coffee. |
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rubl
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Post by rubl on Nov 22, 2019 11:12:36 GMT 7
Nobody ever likes my ideas. Eff it. I am off to the Five Star bar for morning coffee. May I suggest a little something to 'fortify' the coffee? I know from experience friends a bit of cognac in your coffee does wonders to its flavour  |
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rubl
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Post by rubl on Nov 22, 2019 11:16:41 GMT 7
Well uncle rubl, i hope you enjoyed your day and your spiritual batteries have been recharged. I must admit I was disappointeted the papal barge never made it up the mighty klong saen saep to bang kapi, a welcoming committee was arranged at the Mall, Bang Kapi Latter Day Baptists (Bootle affiliated), maybe next time. Dutch Catholics have not been the most favorite flock for many years. If a Pope thought of the Dutch it's probably wondering if he could send the Inquisition to set things 'right and proper'  |
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smirk
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Post by smirk on Nov 22, 2019 12:10:23 GMT 7
I'll think I'll go and watch the grass grow in King Rama IX Park as opposed to watching some doddery old clerical character in its expensive drag costumes continue to indoctrinate the gullible masses into the god theory. Or possibly reruns of this great (*Irish by birth) drag artiste, no religion involved there, he had seen the light. Funnily enough his mother wanted him to be a priest but Danny took the right road without all the religious claptrap Well before my time, so I looked him up. Seems to me this comic in a frock was a throwback to the dance hall days. It's quite a difference from the rubbish that passes as a drag show in Thailand today. The comic in frolic had talent and was actually singing as opposed to the oddities who lipsynch. Back in the good old days the Church condemned such acts as morally wrong, but then the Beatles were evil too I believe. Thailand wasn't much better as such people would have been eunuchs. Fast forwarding to the Pope's speech, he did try to reach out to the poor, disadvantaged, sex workers etc. I also note he defended migrants and refugees and condemned human trafficking. This may have caused some people with vested interests in the seedier parts of the country to recoil in horror. There's a lot to criticize about the church, but I give the fellow credit for speaking out. He's one man stuck with a lot of ignorant people afraid of change and intent on protecting their powerbase who fight him on everything he tries to change. |
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Post by rgs2001uk on Nov 22, 2019 20:42:19 GMT 7
Well uncle rubl, i hope you enjoyed your day and your spiritual batteries have been recharged. I must admit I was disappointeted the papal barge never made it up the mighty klong saen saep to bang kapi, a welcoming committee was arranged at the Mall, Bang Kapi Latter Day Baptists (Bootle affiliated), maybe next time. If a Pope thought of the Dutch it's probably wondering if he could send the Inquisition to set things 'right and proper' Hope springs eternal, smokie tells me, he will make a proper orangemen of the lot of you, 55555 |
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Post by rgs2001uk on Nov 22, 2019 20:43:58 GMT 7
I'll think I'll go and watch the grass grow in King Rama IX Park as opposed to watching some doddery old clerical character in its expensive drag costumes continue to indoctrinate the gullible masses into the god theory. Or possibly reruns of this great (*Irish by birth) drag artiste, no religion involved there, he had seen the light. Funnily enough his mother wanted him to be a priest but Danny took the right road without all the religious claptrap Well before my time, so I looked him up. Seems to me this comic in a frock was a throwback to the dance hall days. It's quite a difference from the rubbish that passes as a drag show in Thailand today. The comic in frolic had talent and was actually singing as opposed to the oddities who lipsynch. Back in the good old days the Church condemned such acts as morally wrong, but then the Beatles were evil too I believe. Thailand wasn't much better as such people would have been eunuchs. Fast forwarding to the Pope's speech, he did try to reach out to the poor, disadvantaged, sex workers etc. I also note he defended migrants and refugees and condemned human trafficking. This may have caused some people with vested interests in the seedier parts of the country to recoil in horror. There's a lot to criticize about the church, but I give the fellow credit for speaking out. He's one man stuck with a lot of ignorant people afraid of change and intent on protecting their powerbase who fight him on everything he tries to change. Papa, him farang, him not understand Thailand. |
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rott
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Post by rott on Nov 23, 2019 10:59:43 GMT 7
I'll think I'll go and watch the grass grow in King Rama IX Park as opposed to watching some doddery old clerical character in its expensive drag costumes continue to indoctrinate the gullible masses into the god theory. Or possibly reruns of this great (*Irish by birth) drag artiste, no religion involved there, he had seen the light. Funnily enough his mother wanted him to be a priest but Danny took the right road without all the religious claptrap Well before my time, so I looked him up. Seems to me this comic in a frock was a throwback to the dance hall days. It's quite a difference from the rubbish that passes as a drag show in Thailand today. The comic in frolic had talent and was actually singing as opposed to the oddities who lipsynch. Back in the good old days the Church condemned such acts as morally wrong, but then the Beatles were evil too I believe. Thailand wasn't much better as such people would have been eunuchs. Fast forwarding to the Pope's speech, he did try to reach out to the poor, disadvantaged, sex workers etc. I also note he defended migrants and refugees and condemned human trafficking. This may have caused some people with vested interests in the seedier parts of the country to recoil in horror. There's a lot to criticize about the church, but I give the fellow credit for speaking out. He's one man stuck with a lot of ignorant people afraid of change and intent on protecting their powerbase who fight him on everything he tries to change. The problem is the poor, disadvantaged, sex workers, migrants, refugees, victims of human trafficking etc are unlikely to be helped or cheered by empty words. When you listened to the speech were you listening to the head of a state with less than 1000 citizens or the head of one of the most corrupted and debased organisations on earth? What was he doing here? Why does his state need an embassy here when his organisation has a cathedral? Does he not have the authority to change the wrongs in his own organisation? Has he ever in his career tried to install anything to prevent the existing child abuse in the various areas where he has been bishop, cardinal, whatever? For that he would have deserved credit. |
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